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What speaker and amps for 10,000 square feet gym (open space) ?

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  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post

    You quoted a very interesting thing that I did not know... as per your experience how much would the loss be?

    The speaker you suggested seems perfect for being placed in the middle of a flat wall, what about a corner? Do they sound good? Maybe I could take 3 of them (central side of the long wall and 2 on the 270 degree corner opposite) and 5 of similar characteristic but different share for having more directioned sound. Could this work?

    In the meantime I got the updated plan with dressing rooms and offices. In order to try to distribute the sound at better, my idea would be to place the speakers as per the picture. I would like to have the speakers to look down at about 30 degrees (could it be fine?).

    The yellow placed at 13 feet, the blue placed at 8 feet.

    My doubt in this case is that the speaker close to the office might create too much noise inside, even if the idea is to insulate office or put double glasses to attenuate the noise..
    Zack -- I'd be lying if I told you I knew. You'd have to contact the receiver company and find out the actual specs on the output with all channels driven. It's usually much less than the two (2) channels driven number they always quote. I personally don't see any issue placing these in a corner, but then again I'm not claiming to be an acoustical engineer. I can tell you that the set I have are under the eve on the roof of my garage and they sound fantastic. Judging by your illustration (nice work by the way) and shooting from the hip, I'd say six (6) speakers should cover that area nicely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zack_1982
    replied
    Originally posted by STIchris722 View Post
    If it's like any other HT receiver though, you don't get full power when running in multi-channel stereo like that though. That shouldn't be an issue for you though with the SPL you are desiring.
    You quoted a very interesting thing that I did not know... as per your experience how much would the loss be?

    The speaker you suggested seems perfect for being placed in the middle of a flat wall, what about a corner? Do they sound good? Maybe I could take 3 of them (central side of the long wall and 2 on the 270 degree corner opposite) and 5 of similar characteristic but different share for having more directioned sound. Could this work?

    In the meantime I got the updated plan with dressing rooms and offices. In order to try to distribute the sound at better, my idea would be to place the speakers as per the picture. I would like to have the speakers to look down at about 30 degrees (could it be fine?).

    The yellow placed at 13 feet, the blue placed at 8 feet.

    My doubt in this case is that the speaker close to the office might create too much noise inside, even if the idea is to insulate office or put double glasses to attenuate the noise..

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by carlthess40 View Post
    You just have to make sure that you lock the volume control from over driving the speakers to that point. I’ve done countless setup for business and pro line Cinema But you are right about not filling in the middle of the floor and that can be handled pretty easy for a 90x90 two way speaker or even better a 6” round horn lens to get more of a 360deg fill
    What is your solution then? I'm curious to know what would work for his application and what businesses you have installed PA speakers with 10" woofers in. How many speakers, what make/model, what locations, amp to drive it, etc? I'd like to map this in CAD for the OP to see if what you're suggesting works. I still don't understand why such a large driver. You are losing me

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  • carlthess40
    replied
    You just have to make sure that you lock the volume control from over driving the speakers to that point. I’ve done countless setup for business and pro line Cinema But you are right about not filling in the middle of the floor and that can be handled pretty easy for a 90x90 two way speaker or even better a 6” round horn lens to get more of a 360deg fill

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by carlthess40 View Post
    You can cover the hold space with a two way speaker using 10” or larger woofer and a 90x60 tweeter/mid horn and use any standard AVR system that will work for your Country and get a speaker control box that you can hook up more speakers and keep the impedance at a 8ohms As for speaker placement Install them at 7 to 8 feet from the ground in the walls facing down to the floor aimed to the center of the floor or about 10’ from the wall. The 90x60 horn will give the speaker good coverage if placed about every 20 to 30 feet and get good coverage If you use a 90x90 horn you will get to many sound waves hitting the ceilings and making to sound very harsh
    I could fill that entire room with one PA speaker too, but you wouldn't want to be next to or near it for that fact. I'm not completely disagreeing with you, but I think you have made a pretty broad statement here. If the OP is trying to have background music evenly dispersed around the room, 10" woofers and horn drivers are not going to be background noise. They will definitely fill the room, but they will be entirely too loud if you are next to them.

    Leave a comment:


  • carlthess40
    replied
    You can cover the hold space with a two way speaker using 10” or larger woofer and a 90x60 tweeter/mid horn and use any standard AVR system that will work for your Country and get a speaker control box that you can hook up more speakers and keep the impedance at a 8ohms As for speaker placement Install them at 7 to 8 feet from the ground in the walls facing down to the floor aimed to the center of the floor or about 10’ from the wall. The 90x60 horn will give the speaker good coverage if placed about every 20 to 30 feet and get good coverage If you use a 90x90 horn you will get to many sound waves hitting the ceilings and making to sound very harsh

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post
    Not at all read as a knock. I am here to learn from who knows a way lot more than me

    The option for the all stereo channels is at page 81 of the manual, I attached a screenshot. My idea come from that one.


    With the Ashly solution the configuration would be the following, right?

    Stereo (music source) --> Mixer MX 406 (via the RCA inputs) -- > Amplifier KLR-2000 (via the jack audio 6.3) ----> First group of 4 speakers on channel 1 and second group of for speakers on channel 2.
    Well shoot. I completely missed that. If that receiver will play all nine (9) channels at once, I'd go for that! That would be a much simpler setup. If it's like any other HT receiver though, you don't get full power when running in multi-channel stereo like that though. That shouldn't be an issue for you though with the SPL you are desiring. I think you found your answer Zack!

    I will attest though, that those outdoor speakers I mentioned in a previous post do sound phenomenal for the price. The giant passive radiator on the back of it makes for a sound that you would think was coming from a much bigger speaker.....No louder, just fuller!

    Leave a comment:


  • Zack_1982
    replied
    Not at all read as a knock. I am here to learn from who knows a way lot more than me

    The option for the all stereo channels is at page 81 of the manual, I attached a screenshot. My idea come from that one.


    With the Ashly solution the configuration would be the following, right?

    Stereo (music source) --> Mixer MX 406 (via the RCA inputs) -- > Amplifier KLR-2000 (via the jack audio 6.3) ----> First group of 4 speakers on channel 1 and second group of for speakers on channel 2.

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post
    Thank you for the replies.

    There is one thing I can't understand, sorry for the question: in case I'd buy a Yamaha amplifier (ex the Yamaha RX-A2070BL - up to 140 W per channel), using the same 8 speakers you suggested in multi-channel stereo, there would be difference in sound quality? Could something like a Yamaha support the workload for long time or will I burn it? Having long wiring (100 feet or maybe more) would cause reduction in volume from the speakers that are more far from the amp? There would be particular cable to be used?

    Having something like the Yamaha would allow to connect to Internet and to simplify the rest of the installation.

    Spending 1000 USD more would not be a problem in case, but my doubt is that with the Ashly then I would need to add a music source like the Yamaha to trigger the music broadcasting/connecting to internet for internet radio, etc, right?
    I looked up that particular receiver and I couldn't find any documentation to support that in multi-channel stereo that all 9 channels can be driven at the same time. The was the problem with my 7.2 Marantz receiver. The multi-channel stereo only powers 5 speakers. That figure they give you on the website about power per channel is only rated with the L/R front speakers rated. Also for some wonky reason, the Yamaha website throws a stick in the spokes and talks about dynamic power down to 2ohms. I've never heard of (not to say it doesn't exist) HT receivers rated for 2 ohms. The standard minimum is 6ohms from my experience.

    with the Ashly setup, you could in theory purchase a power amplifier like their KLR series, and hook a cheaper HT receiver into it to act as sole a pre amplifier/ controller. See, where you are running into problems is you are trying to hook multiple speakers up with minimal equipment (this is not a knock on you). We need to be strategic in how we do so. You can either go constant voltage (which still has some limitations), a HT amplifier with minimal speakers, or a PA amplifier rated for 2ohm minimum loading with a HT pre-amplifier front stage. You will get a lot of differing opinions, but IMO Ashly makes the most solid PA amplifier out there. I don't think they are the "best", but I have never had a failure and the clarity, headroom, and power is unbelievable. That's why I keep mentioning it.

    That picture I posted is from an Ashly amplifier manual showing power drop through impedance drops and wire gauge loses. Hopefully that gives you a better idea.

    cheers,
    Chris

    Leave a comment:


  • Zack_1982
    replied
    Thank you for the replies.

    There is one thing I can't understand, sorry for the question: in case I'd buy a Yamaha amplifier (ex the Yamaha RX-A2070BL - up to 140 W per channel), using the same 8 speakers you suggested in multi-channel stereo, there would be difference in sound quality? Could something like a Yamaha support the workload for long time or will I burn it? Having long wiring (100 feet or maybe more) would cause reduction in volume from the speakers that are more far from the amp? There would be particular cable to be used?

    Having something like the Yamaha would allow to connect to Internet and to simplify the rest of the installation.

    Spending 1000 USD more would not be a problem in case, but my doubt is that with the Ashly then I would need to add a music source like the Yamaha to trigger the music broadcasting/connecting to internet for internet radio, etc, right?
    Last edited by Zack_1982; 07-08-2018, 03:27 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post
    I checked and there should be only 1 zone across the entire gym, no need to separate. Same volume across the entire areas.

    Unfortunately the ceiling is not usable for the speakers, so the walls should be used and they can be mounted up to 13 feet from the ground.


    One note if it could be useful: the gym is located in Europe, hence 220V / 50Hz and not 120V / 60 Hz.
    Well that simplifies things. If it were my setup, I would mount these across the walls:

    https://www.crutchfield.com/p_735AW6...500-White.html

    They are 8ohm impedance which means you could string 4 per channel to get a 2ohm load.

    Buy a two channel 2 ohm stable PA amplifier such as this:

    http://ashly.com/products/klr-high-p...nce-amplifiers

    Then buy a line level mixer such as this (MX 406):

    http://ashly.com/products/analog-mixers

    If you really wanted to simplify things and not run eight (8) of these speakers in your gym, but a 5.1 HT amplifier and run 5 of the speakers in multi-channel stereo. Cheap Cheap Cheap

    Leave a comment:


  • Sydney
    replied
    One sound source is good, as there will be general exercise areas, rather than True Zones ( like Classrooms ) which would have physical barriers to prevent sound leakage between Zones.
    Perhaps the Euro market has vendors that make solutions for this sort of venue.
    There are speakers with adjustable dispersion options that would be useful.
    These mounted at 13' height with a downward tight pattern rake might work better than a simple conventional box.
    The better products have performance data that can be imported into Acoustic Design programs ( EASE, CLF etc ) to facilitate setup.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zack_1982
    replied
    I checked and there should be only 1 zone across the entire gym, no need to separate. Same volume across the entire areas.

    Unfortunately the ceiling is not usable for the speakers, so the walls should be used and they can be mounted up to 13 feet from the ground.


    One note if it could be useful: the gym is located in Europe, hence 220V / 50Hz and not 120V / 60 Hz.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sydney
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post
    ... I don't think we can use the ceiling to mount anything....
    Too bad.
    IMHO: the result of exciting the Axial and Tangential modes will be cacophony.
    Last edited by Sydney; 07-08-2018, 08:54 AM. Reason: clarity

    Leave a comment:


  • STIchris722
    replied
    Originally posted by Zack_1982 View Post
    Having multiple zones could be good (for example closer to the offices we could lower the music) and even better if we can control them via phone. I was not aware of the 70V systems, thank you very much for the suggestion, I am reading about it.

    I can see that the audio quality is lower... how much lower? Can the difference be recognized by listen to the music? It's true that I don't need to listed to Mozart, but I want the quality to be good.

    The speakers you quoted are for ceiling, can I mount them even on the vertical wall? I don't think we can use the ceiling to mount anything.


    Let's say that the budget can go up to 6000 USD if needed... and if it's required more we can discuss... since it's a work done only once, I would like to be done properly
    https://www.prosoundtraining.com/201...-system-myths/

    This article is a good read. From my experience it is pretty spot on......S*** in, S*** out. It's all about the components.

    for $6k USD, you could make a lot happen.

    The flexibility of constant voltage systems like 70v and 100v are really useful for commercial applications such as what you're trying to accomplish. I have seen many restaurant and bar owners use them as well as schools. The main reason is because you can connect many speakers on one (1) chain without significant impedance issues on your amplifier as well as having zonal control.

    If you could narrow down how many zones you are after, I could design your system for you. Like someone else mentioned I believe, I suspended ceiling would definitely benefit the room acoustics. Between the sound tiles in the ceiling and the rubber mat on the floor, you'd have a much more acoustically neutral room.

    Leave a comment:

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