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  • Space constraints....

    I have a built in entertainment center in my living room. Takes up the whole wall with shelves on each side that are approx 13" tall. Soooo, bookshelf speakers it is. Been looking at a project (C-Note) with my oldest son for way too long. Going to pull the plug soon. On to my question. My living room is basically a great room with no separation to the kitchen. Seating is around 13-14 feet from the wall and separation is not an issue. Since the C-Notes will serve double duty, I'm wondering if they will be a little underachieving on the low end for HT. I was toying the thought of adding an 8 or 10 inch woofer (PE classic sealed) on each side in a separate cabinet in another shelf at floor level. I can angle the driver up and in to listening position. Is this a suitable idea or am I way off? Maybe a 2 way crossover at around 100Hz? Higher? Any input would be great. Thanks! Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  • #2
    You're not way off. I think the C notes would be fine for what you want to have setup and will sound decent in a home theater context. The bass response will be lacking for movies though, and a subwoofer is the easiest fix. You didn't indicate what amp or receiver you will be using, but most of them support 2.1, and a powered subwoofer will allow you to accomplish what you are talking about without building a separate crossover. You to not need to angle the driver up, bass frequencies are much less directional. What will be important is the location in the room. Corners amplify the bass more. If it were me, I would start out by making sure my amp can drive a 2.1 system with a passive sub. Then I would build the cnotes, then finally I would add a powered sub, whether it is DIY or something pre built. Some amps will have power for the sub channel which would allow you to use a passive sub, but it seems like powered subs are more common. Depending on your goals about output, an 8-10" sub should be sufficient. I just installed a 10" diy sub in my place, with vaulted ceilings and an approximate 20x25' size and it the sub puts out plenty.

    Many people like the Voxel sub, maybe check it out since it has a nice form factor. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...xel-a-mini-sub
    It is a small driver though, so you won't get the same sort of response as you would with something larger.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ohaple View Post
      You're not way off. I think the C notes would be fine for what you want to have setup and will sound decent in a home theater context. The bass response will be lacking for movies though, and a subwoofer is the easiest fix. You didn't indicate what amp or receiver you will be using, but most of them support 2.1, and a powered subwoofer will allow you to accomplish what you are talking about without building a separate crossover. You to not need to angle the driver up, bass frequencies are much less directional. What will be important is the location in the room. Corners amplify the bass more. If it were me, I would start out by making sure my amp can drive a 2.1 system with a passive sub. Then I would build the cnotes, then finally I would add a powered sub, whether it is DIY or something pre built. Some amps will have power for the sub channel which would allow you to use a passive sub, but it seems like powered subs are more common. Depending on your goals about output, an 8-10" sub should be sufficient. I just installed a 10" diy sub in my place, with vaulted ceilings and an approximate 20x25' size and it the sub puts out plenty. Many people like the Voxel sub, maybe check it out since it has a nice form factor. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...xel-a-mini-sub It is a small driver though, so you won't get the same sort of response as you would with something larger.
      I have a 5.1 setup with an older HK525 that I love even though it's outdated. Love the sound, built in x-over and good power. I have a home made 12" sub that does well but that will be upgraded over time as well. I just like what is supposed to be in front to be in front and punchy if it needs to be. I could cross over the sub higher to help but I would rather not. Edit: I'll probably build them, let them break in and then make a determination... but another project is tantalizing! Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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      • #4
        Maybe I misunderstood then. You are wondering whether you will need an 8"-10" woofer in addition to the sub? No. If you have the sub it should be sufficient. The time and money you would spend modifying the cnotes would probably be better spent on a different design if the Cnotes won't fit what you want.

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        • #5
          The C-Notes go pretty low for bookshelf speakers, it looks like down to 60Hz which is pretty good for music using 2-way bookshelves. There are many threads/post with people debating whether you need to get below 50Hz for most music.

          For the subs in home theater, most people are aiming for low to mid 20Hz. If you look at the Dayton Classics, they aren't going to get you much below 50Hz sealed. I think they would need a big ported box to go low, and even then I'm not sure how low they'd go. The PE recommendations get you an F3 of 26Hz in 3.4 ft^3. (Jeff Bagby's Baby Boomer subwoofer uses the Classic 10" and gets an F3 of 30Hz.)

          The other thing I would point out is that having two subwoofers, usually placing them strategically in the room is important, and that usually doesn't agree with the aesthetics aspect of having them nice and symmetric at the front of the room in or by the entertainment center.

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          • #6
            Thanks guys! Yes, I was thinking of adding woofers to the front. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't going to modify the C-Notes, but add an enclosure under them, trying to keep the alignment passable. The area where they would go probably isn't large enough for ported enclosures so I guess the low end extension of sealed wouldn't be worth it. I would LOVE to have 2 subs in the correct position but I wouldn't be able to get that passed the wife. I've got it in the best spot I could without drama, which is better than I expected. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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            • #7
              There are small speakers with better bass response such as the Speedsters, available in a flat pack. Cost more but you might not need subs depending on your tastes.

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              • #8
                We'll, I just ordered a pair of the C-Notes. Got all the extras I needed as well. I've been doing a lot of reading about coupling and decoupling. Since these are going to be in a middle shelf with 5 sides, I was thinking I should try to reduce the amount of energy transferred because it will be amplified. I'm thinking the bottom end may have a little gain due to the fact it's almost like being loaded. I'll probably have to play with depth to see if it changes how it sounds. I had a chat with Chris P. back in January about this project and was thinking of doing an MTM version for the center if I like how this turns out. He said he was actually working on an MTM version and should have a crossover designed in a few months. I sent him a message a couple weeks ago but haven't heard back from him yet... Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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                • #9
                  And here it is. Had a good time building them! Little stressful on making sure the cabinets turn out nice but all in all had fun. My son enjoyed helping build the crossover. The low end on these is surprising! Very pleased! Next will be an MTM version for the center to make the front end complete... Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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                  • #10
                    Ooh! Bird's-eye!!
                    Wolf
                    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
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                    *InDIYana event website*

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                    • #11
                      Finally had a chance to sit down and give a good listen and adjust everything for the new fronts. Now that I actually have something that reproduces lower notes, I found out that my sub was 180° out! I couldn't tell before. I ususally listen to music in stereo, sometimes running 2.1 depending on what I'm listening to. That's when I found it. I'm really liking these! My brother in law came over and had him have a listen. He asked if I was running the sub. He couldn't believe I wasn't. I'm pretty sure having them in a shelf (5 sides) helps loading them a little. On another note, is Chris P around? Like I've said before, I chatted with him earlier in the year about an MTM version which he stated he was working on. I messaged him on Tapatalk like our previous conversation to no avail.. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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                      • #12
                        I'm still around, lol.
                        Sorry about the messages, I am having some issues... I have gotten some notifications that I have new messages, but there is never anything there. I need to talk to Ginger to figure out what is going on.

                        Wow! Benny, those look great!
                        Nice work and glad you like them.

                        Actually, your place for them is great (well, maybe pull them to the front edge of the shelf). The are actually designed to be bookshelf speakers (or near a wall)... That's why it only has about 1/2 the baffle step correction I would usually use and the extended bass alignment on the tuning. The big advantage of designing them that way is the ability squeeze out as much efficiency, low end capability, and total output as possible, the fact that it keeps the crossover parts smaller (and less expensive) is an added bonus (OK, on the C-notes it was a necessity, lol). To most people they will probably sound a little lean on the low end when away from a wall, a little boost can make up for that (with the low tuning they could take it pretty well), but that will cost you a little bit of output capability (3 dB of boost will lose about 3 dB of output capability). Really, if someone wants to use them away from a wall I'd recommend the port be cut down to around 4 or 5 inches and then run them with a sub. Also, for home theater use, regardless of location... Always run a sub, lol. You can only expect so much from a 5"...
                        I say that because I just watched "The Hurt Locker" last night, that explosion in the opening sequence is fantastic! No 5" would stand a chance, lol!

                        The MTM and center channel C-notes are coming. The project was put on hold temporarily, but I just got back to it a few days ago. The first version of the center channel enclosure is built and many measurements have been made. I'm planning on getting a first version of the crossover thrown together tomorrow. It's bigger than I envisioned, so this might end up becoming the MTM, Lol.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chris_Perez View Post
                          I'm still around, lol. Sorry about the messages, I am having some issues... I have gotten some notifications that I have new messages, but there is never anything there. I need to talk to Ginger to figure out what is going on. Wow! Benny, those look great! Nice work and glad you like them. Actually, your place for them is great (well, maybe pull them to the front edge of the shelf). The are actually designed to be bookshelf speakers (or near a wall)... That's why it only has about 1/2 the baffle step correction I would usually use and the extended bass alignment on the tuning. The big advantage of designing them that way is the ability squeeze out as much efficiency, low end capability, and total output as possible, the fact that it keeps the crossover parts smaller (and less expensive) is an added bonus (OK, on the C-notes it was a necessity, lol). To most people they will probably sound a little lean on the low end when away from a wall, a little boost can make up for that (with the low tuning they could take it pretty well), but that will cost you a little bit of output capability (3 dB of boost will lose about 3 dB of output capability). Really, if someone wants to use them away from a wall I'd recommend the port be cut down to around 4 or 5 inches and then run them with a sub. Also, for home theater use, regardless of location... Always run a sub, lol. You can only expect so much from a 5"... I say that because I just watched "The Hurt Locker" last night, that explosion in the opening sequence is fantastic! No 5" would stand a chance, lol! The MTM and center channel C-notes are coming. The project was put on hold temporarily, but I just got back to it a few days ago. The first version of the center channel enclosure is built and many measurements have been made. I'm planning on getting a first version of the crossover thrown together tomorrow. It's bigger than I envisioned, so this might end up becoming the MTM, Lol.
                          Good to hear from you! If I move them up, it'll mess with the lighting! Lol I have about 5" behind them still. Not sure if that's enough, I will play with positioning though. They should be broken in pretty soon so that'll help. That explosion in Hurt Locker was amazing! I don't think there are many subs that could handle it! Haven't used them yet for HT... other than watching TV at low to moderate volume. I'll probably cross them over @ 60Hz to start and see how it goes from there. It nice to have more authority than what I had! I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with! If it's anything like these, it'll be a hit! Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chris_Perez View Post
                            I'm still around, lol.
                            Sorry about the messages, I am having some issues... I have gotten some notifications that I have new messages, but there is never anything there. I need to talk to Ginger to figure out what is going on.
                            Haha. And here I thought you were just ignoring messages to focus on actual work. =)

                            Will the MTM version be a tower, or a tall bookshelf?

                            For me the ideal form factor would be tall bookshelf MTM, similar to the Overnight Sensations / S2000 MTMs over at DIYSG. If they're $100 or less I'll immediately order three for the L/C/R in my living room. I could probably work w/ two towers and a wider center channel version too, might have to rearrange things a bit.

                            There is a lot of buzz about the C-Notes around the web. I've recommended them to many and I've also seen many other recommending them! Really enjoying the pair I built. You knocked that design out of the park... good luck with the new versions!

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