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  • Dayton's premium drivers - Now what?

    I'm really digging the looks of the Esoteric and Epique lines but they're a little sparse. The Epique's are really nice but the price really seams like Dayton is not targeting the average DIY'er. The Esoteric line seems more in line with what the average consumer is willing to pay.

    I found when planning my open baffle design that there's very little to match the drivers. How would you like to see the Esoteric and Epique lines evolve?


  • #2
    4" high sensitivity. RS with poly cones - as long as they finally pay attention to on-axis response. 8" Esoteric, 6" Epi-que. I probably won't buy these if they adhere to recent driver design goals, but if Dayton could figure out how to design a 7-8" driver that will actually do 30Hz in a standard cabinet, I might. They get so close so often, like fishing - all it takes is a nibble to keep you interested but eventually you realize it is cheaper to buy walleye filet at the grocery store.

    On a tangent, Dayton could use another real tweeter with a 104mm faceplate. Their recent neo jobber with the optional faceplate extension system technically fits the bill - but it also lands a dinky neo tweeter at over $30. Yawn. I know the RS currently occupies that spot, but Dayton can and should do better for full size tweeters. Alternatively, they could offer their excellent neo motored but way too dinky tweeters with a real chamber and a lower Fs.

    It only took us ten years to see paper cone RS woofers and RS passives, so I wouldn't hold your breath on anything else coming our way any time soon. We did, however, get this pile of "CE" stuff.

    Oh, that woven looking poly cone series would be nice to see them up to 8" and using a not-sh!t basket.
    Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

    Comment


    • #3
      I second the idea of RS drivers with poly cones. They should hopefully result in a smooth mid range and a natural roll off with little or no cone breakup. I like the PM220 mid bass drivers and PS220 full range drivers also.

      Comment


      • #4
        I was thinking more along the lines of expanding the Esoteric or Epique lines than the RS. Not that there's anything wrong with the RS line. Just a different price point.

        Personally I would like to see an Esoteric mid-range. Especially since the es140tia and es180tia require such a low crossover. If the dust-cap can't be tamed/re-engineered then an Esoteric under hung woven glass fiber mid with a phase plug would do nicely. Similar to the RS180 but woven and state-of-the-art.

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        • #5
          I think an Eso-underhung 4" mid with a bit higher sensitivity would fill a lot of wants, say about 90-92dB. It also would benefit to have the same style Neo-motor but with a smaller voice coil. Instead of glass-fiber like the Eso, a woven poly like the PC/PB(?) series could be better damped and lacking as stiff of a break-up. That said- woven glass fiber is a really good mid material.

          The Eso line is supposed to have a new tweeter model coming, or so I've been told...

          Later,
          Wolf
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
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          • #6
            Definitely would be in favor of a poly RS!
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            • #7
              Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
              4" high sensitivity. RS with poly cones - as long as they finally pay attention to on-axis response. 8" Esoteric, 6" Epi-que. I probably won't buy these if they adhere to recent driver design goals, but if Dayton could figure out how to design a 7-8" driver that will actually do 30Hz in a standard cabinet, I might. They get so close so often, like fishing - all it takes is a nibble to keep you interested but eventually you realize it is cheaper to buy walleye filet at the grocery store.

              On a tangent, Dayton could use another real tweeter with a 104mm faceplate. Their recent neo jobber with the optional faceplate extension system technically fits the bill - but it also lands a dinky neo tweeter at over $30. Yawn. I know the RS currently occupies that spot, but Dayton can and should do better for full size tweeters. Alternatively, they could offer their excellent neo motored but way too dinky tweeters with a real chamber and a lower Fs.

              It only took us ten years to see paper cone RS woofers and RS passives, so I wouldn't hold your breath on anything else coming our way any time soon. We did, however, get this pile of "CE" stuff.

              Oh, that woven looking poly cone series would be nice to see them up to 8" and using a not-sh!t basket.
              Try modeling that Epique 8 using small gauge air core inductors instead of the usual iron or ferrite core. For example, let's say the inductor in the 8" LP filter is 3mH. If you choose a 20ga air core you get an extra 1.38 Ohm resistance, raising the effective Qts of the woofer and lowering sensitivity. Put the Epique 8 into 1.75 cubic feet tuned to 33Hz and you wind up with [email protected], [email protected] Midband sensitivity remains at 90dB too. That's very tempting IMO.
              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


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              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                Instead of glass-fiber like the Eso, a woven poly like the PC/PB(?) series could be better damped and lacking as stiff of a break-up. That said- woven glass fiber is a really good mid material.

                The Eso line is supposed to have a new tweeter model coming, or so I've been told...

                Later,
                Wolf
                A woven poly version would be nice too giving freakishly flat frequency response. In fact given how rare dedicated mid-ranges are they could release several versions and all would likely sell if the price is right. As for the breakup of a woven fiber mid the B&W FST managed to push it up all the way to 15khz. So I still hold hope for a matching woven mid.

                FST:
                Click image for larger version  Name:	B&W-FST-LF00264-FR.gif Views:	1 Size:	11.9 KB ID:	1384905

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pete Schumacher View Post

                  Try modeling that Epique 8 using small gauge air core inductors instead of the usual iron or ferrite core. For example, let's say the inductor in the 8" LP filter is 3mH. If you choose a 20ga air core you get an extra 1.38 Ohm resistance, raising the effective Qts of the woofer and lowering sensitivity. Put the Epique 8 into 1.75 cubic feet tuned to 33Hz and you wind up with [email protected], [email protected] Midband sensitivity remains at 90dB too. That's very tempting IMO.
                  Consider it done.
                  Guess xmax's age.

                  My guess: 15. His grammar is passable. His trolling is good.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
                    4" high sensitivity. RS with poly cones - as long as they finally pay attention to on-axis response. 8" Esoteric, 6" Epi-que. I probably won't buy these if they adhere to recent driver design goals, but if Dayton could figure out how to design a 7-8" driver that will actually do 30Hz in a standard cabinet, I might. They get so close so often, like fishing - all it takes is a nibble to keep you interested but eventually you realize it is cheaper to buy walleye filet at the grocery store.

                    On a tangent, Dayton could use another real tweeter with a 104mm faceplate. Their recent neo jobber with the optional faceplate extension system technically fits the bill - but it also lands a dinky neo tweeter at over $30. Yawn. I know the RS currently occupies that spot, but Dayton can and should do better for full size tweeters. Alternatively, they could offer their excellent neo motored but way too dinky tweeters with a real chamber and a lower Fs.

                    It only took us ten years to see paper cone RS woofers and RS passives, so I wouldn't hold your breath on anything else coming our way any time soon. We did, however, get this pile of "CE" stuff.

                    Oh, that woven looking poly cone series would be nice to see them up to 8" and using a not-sh!t basket.
                    The new RST28 has some of the lowest distortion I have ever seen, it also reaches lower than any 28mm dome under 5 times it's price.
                    Perhaps 10 times the price.
                    Guess xmax's age.

                    My guess: 15. His grammar is passable. His trolling is good.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For Esoteric I'd like to see a 12" and/or an actual Sub woofer 12 to 15 using the same materials, engineering and techniques as the current series. It would match the LCR I built extremely well but I'd be most curious how much raw power they'd handle, the tonal quality or voicing at extreme low frequencies and the boom factor.
                      Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

                      Passive Radiators:
                      All PR(s) Vd must be at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). A combined PR(s) Vd equal or > than a combined woofer(s) Vd is usable.
                      Woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax is usable.
                      A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

                      PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by xmax View Post

                        The new RST28 has some of the lowest distortion I have ever seen, it also reaches lower than any 28mm dome under 5 times it's price.
                        Perhaps 10 times the price.
                        High praise. How would you compare them to the new Peerless corundum domes? Seem like a competitor for the cheap/robust tweeter segment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Also, to add to the previous discussion - RS Poly cones would be really useful drivers, and allow some very inexpensive but elegant designs.

                          In general, I'd like to see more small midrange drivers. If Dayton produced a 4" or even 3" midrange at the level of the epique I'd be very excited. Right now, dayton's best small format midranges are the rs52s, which are underrated I think, but trickier to work with than a nice 4" cone.

                          Another driver variant I'd like to see is a 150mm version of the pm180.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For what it's worth, I passed along the idea of the poly coned RS drivers yesterday at our new product meeting. Went over fairly well. We'll see what happens
                            All views and opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of Parts Express.

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                            • #15
                              Glad to see others share the love of poly. One of the attractions of the material is it can be made to be highly damped, and have a very low FS. Personally, I would like to see that happen - rather than another option with a breakup. I, for one, will sacrifice sensitivity.
                              Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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