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Kirby meets Toid Speaker Build and Dsign

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  • Kirby meets Toid Speaker Build and Dsign

    While at MWAF, Kirby and I got to really meet each other and decided that we wanted to collaborate on a project. Inspired by Kerry Armes beautiful design and [email protected] simple crossover, I decided to get to work. I wanted to keep it as simple as possible so anyone could end up making them. I also wanted them to be fullrange, so I worked hard to get as close to the 30hz on the low end as I could. I ended up using the RS180S-8 and the RST28F-4 as the tweeter. I crossed it over at 1800hz. The tweeter got a 3rd order crossover and the Woofer got a second order. I thought i would need a zobel, but ended up not needing it. So this is the final result. I will post some build pictures and some finished pictures in the next day or two as well as a diagram to the crossover. For now, I will leave you with the video that talks about the design goals and crossover.



    Here is the crossover I originally designed. This is the one found in the video:



    After talking it over with Wolf from tech talk there was some discussion on how the speakers might benefit from eliminating more of the cone breakup. With this in mind, this simulation shows this crossover design. Keep in mind, that this is theoretical and neither of us have tested it. However, it might be worth your time to try it out. I plan to, when life calms down a little more, I just haven't had time to yet. For the price, it would be worth just getting the extra parts and testing it yourself. The parts in general are very inexpensive.


    ​​​​​​​
    Last edited by Altoid; 10-21-2018, 04:00 PM.
    All about Speaker Design YouTube Channel

  • #2
    How about a sound demo?

    Comment


    • #3
      I can do that if you want. It may take a few days, but I would be happy to do that for you guys.
      All about Speaker Design YouTube Channel

      Comment


      • #4
        Looks good and I like the simple crossover; how do you find the sound of the RST28?

        Geoff

        Comment


        • #5
          It looks as though you applied the solder to the iron. You are supposed to heat the joint with the iron, and then apply the solder to the opposing side of the joint. The solder will flow towards the heat.

          Later,
          Wolf
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

          Photobucket pages:
          http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey Nick,

            Watched both your and Kirby's videos last night. They look pretty fantastic, I must say. Glad I could be an inspiration, but Wolf has to take some credit for it. He forced my hand, after all. ;)

            Seriously though, I bet they sound quite good. I'm curious as to your thoughts of the RST28. I'm looking at possibly using them for my towers I want to build next year.

            Cheers!
            All views and opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of Parts Express.

            Void where prohibited. Batteries not included. All sales final.

            Comment


            • #7
              Let's be clear here- you guys picked the theme. I just provided a list to pick from.

              But sincerely, thank you for the mention.
              Wolf
              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

              *InDIYana event website*

              Photobucket pages:
              http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

              My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

              Comment


              • #8
                A vented f3 of 50hz is a long way from 30hz! Your video shows the 4 ohm going that low, not the 8 ohm that you are using. I also have some doubts about your x-over suppressing the cone breakup sufficiently. It's probably not horrible, but I'd certainly want better, and I suspect that I'd find it fatiguing. This is a case where more x-over parts are likely needed, even if it seems cool, or theoretically better to use less. People like cheap designs, if they are being told they are fantastic, and some people think less is more, so you are on the right track. People that don't know better will believe you. As for the Indiana contest, I think it's a joke. It's an interesting challenge to use only 5 parts in a x-over, but any design that gets entered could be better with 2 more parts. Ask anyone that enters. They will tell you the same. Why compromise a design for $10? I expect a low number of entries for the contest. It's truly a waste of time. Gee.. I feel much better now that I got that out!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rpb View Post
                  A vented f3 of 50hz is a long way from 30hz! Your video shows the 4 ohm going that low, not the 8 ohm that you are using. I also have some doubts about your x-over suppressing the cone breakup sufficiently. It's probably not horrible, but I'd certainly want better, and I suspect that I'd find it fatiguing. This is a case where more x-over parts are likely needed, even if it seems cool, or theoretically better to use less. People like cheap designs, if they are being told they are fantastic, and some people think less is more, so you are on the right track. People that don't know better will believe you. As for the Indiana contest, I think it's a joke. It's an interesting challenge to use only 5 parts in a x-over, but any design that gets entered could be better with 2 more parts. Ask anyone that enters. They will tell you the same. Why compromise a design for $10? I expect a low number of entries for the contest. It's truly a waste of time. Gee.. I feel much better now that I got that out!
                  Wow, a rare bit of straight forward critique here. I appreciated it, wish we had more of it in the diy audio world.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Kudos to you for doing this video!!!! If I'd had this on tap when I first started getting into speaker building so many questions would have become clear and it would have seemed like a much friendlier environment to learn from. Well done! This is the sort of thing that should be made into a sticky for all the people who are intrigued to find out more about this hobby.

                    [QUOTE=Wolf;n1385905]It looks as though you applied the solder to the iron. You are supposed to heat the joint with the iron, and then apply the solder to the opposing side of the joint. The solder will flow towards the heat.

                    Not sure where you're coming from here? I see him using his iron on the wires and just like I do sometimes is use a touch of melted solder to heat up the twist then move the iron lower down and feed in the solder. It works every time. I understand the necessity of heating a much larger mass first when soldering a smaller mass to it, but it seems to be a bit of nitpicking about this video.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rpb View Post
                      As for the Indiana contest, I think it's a joke. It's an interesting challenge to use only 5 parts in a x-over, but any design that gets entered could be better with 2 more parts. Ask anyone that enters. They will tell you the same. Why compromise a design for $10? I expect a low number of entries for the contest. It's truly a waste of time. Gee.. I feel much better now that I got that out!
                      TBH, rpb, I was surprised it was selected due to the criteria. I did not see that one coming out on top. However, as many that I know are committing, there will be plenty of entries. I'm going to try it too. The challenge is to succeed, but I don't think it's a joke, nor unattainable.
                      I am also skeptical about this project since it does not seem to have any breakup compensation, but without more information, I am only guessing.

                      Nigel, a heat bridge is of course the norm, which is why you tin the iron first, but I did not see him move the iron or feed from across the joint. You'd be surprised how many people on this forum have thought soldering is and I quote: "painted on" or 'applied to the iron' and not the joint. This was just a clarity point, as it did not appear to be what he was doing. Cold solder joints are not ever a good idea for reliability, and if you don't thoroughly heat the joint, the bond will be inferior, it will have reduced contact with higher resistance, and also be prone to failure with age. I just want the best results for everyone, plain and simple.

                      Later,
                      Wolf
                      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                      *InDIYana event website*

                      Photobucket pages:
                      http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Honest question Wolf, since you heard my speakers at MWAF:

                        Did you notice any cone breakup on my RS125's? No one I've talked to has mentioned anything about cone breakup on them, the only issue that's been brought up with them has been the overly bright tweeter, which I knew it would be given it had zero attenuation done to it.

                        All views and opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of Parts Express.

                        Void where prohibited. Batteries not included. All sales final.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dld View Post

                          Wow, a rare bit of straight forward critique here. I appreciated it, wish we had more of it in the diy audio world.
                          That was more of a condescending rant. Pointers and friendly advice are more productive.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                            Honest question Wolf, since you heard my speakers at MWAF:

                            Did you notice any cone breakup on my RS125's? No one I've talked to has mentioned anything about cone breakup on them, the only issue that's been brought up with them has been the overly bright tweeter, which I knew it would be given it had zero attenuation done to it.
                            Scott, that really was a prime example of me not being able to tell. I only had 3 minutes, and the source material was suspect. I'm just not sure I can give you an honest answer either way here.

                            Later,
                            Wolf
                            "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                            "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                            "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                            "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                            *InDIYana event website*

                            Photobucket pages:
                            http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                            My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jake View Post

                              That was more of a condescending rant. Pointers and friendly advice are more productive.
                              I was in a bit of a mood for some reason, and I could have toned it down a notch. However, some things just push my buttons sometimes. Lately it's the notion that the fewer x-over parts, the better. I simply don't agree with that theory. If others do, that's OK, but I don't like to see someone get talked into accepting that theory. Less parts is less work to assemble though, so if it's simply trying to make the build easy, I guess that's one of the design trade offs. I just don't think a low part count should be the goal.

                              I did get confused watching the video, because I saw the impedance graph was for the 4 ohm. In checking the 8 ohm data sheet, I saw that PE says 50hz f3. I didn't sim it. Maybe that's wrong. I did not sim the 4 ohm either, and I wonder if it actually can go that low.

                              I did play with the files in PCD, and I think a better x-over could be made. It would cost more, but I think it's worth it.. The speaker may sound great as designed. I shouldn't have said that I'd find it fatiguing. I'm sure I've built some with the same breakup issues.

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