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  • #16
    It's not exactly China who is beating the prices down. American corporations went there to purchase commodity known as labor on the globalized market. The jobs in US weren't eliminated by Chinese.
    They were eliminated by Americans.
    The objective of the tariffs on the surface appears to be a strive to equalize the labor cost differences in order to bust gainful employment in US. At list on the surface.
    Unfortunately, tariffs aren't going to work very well because of the drastic difference in cost of this commodity. Not to mention fairly limited environmental protection in Chinese manufacturing.
    Who gets bailouts? These with the strongest lobby power.
    http://www.diy-ny.com/

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    • #17
      Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
      … They were eliminated by Americans ...

      … Who gets bailouts? These with the strongest lobby power.
      +2

      Now add those American companies entering contractual (or other) agreements for said companies to do business over there including handing over (or otherwise) their actual IP after X years so China is handed a final product, prototype or "widget" without having paid a dime in the R&D to ever come close to being able to (invent it and then) produce it on their own.

      Short term profit (by the companies) without regard to long term impacts (screwing the United States) became a trend, or appeared to.

      And this is just a tiny piece of this ****-pie we're now all staring at wondering how we're going to choke down the slices.

      Giving money to Peter to pay Paul (bailouts) sure as hell makes no long term sense because it's not making money, it's just shuffling the same around all over the place, except with losses as it makes its way through administrative and other "procedures" including skimming theft until someone fixes the problem (undo ignorant tariffs and try things that work) or the money dries up and requires more... until there isn't any left.

      Everything I said above is simply from the view of an engineer who "thinks" most of what I said is accurate based on what I've picked up over the years. I don't know financial details, innards, complex chains of economy or anything else experts in those fields do. So, I don't know how "correct" what I've said is, and very open to "researchable fact based corrections" to any of it, as always.

      What does seem clear though is we've entered an adhoc war of absolute stupidity destined to do nothing except kick ourselves straight in the balls while further allowing other markets to create supply chains that, once created, we'll no longer be able to get back. Other countries will benefit by creating new supply chains and markets (because no tariffs) while - we - run around like bugs under a magnifying glass trying to figure out how to escape.

      These tariffs need to end. Seems clear what that actually means. Tomorrow would be a great time to "start" to fix it with crystal clear messages.

      Feel free to rip my assumptions apart when wrong, or fix if close.

      Passive Radiators:
      All PR(s) Vd must at-least double all woofer(s) Vd. Calc = Sd x Xmax to get Vd for all PR(s) and all woofer(s). If all PR(s) Vd at-least double all woofer(s) Vd they'll work.
      For woofer(s) with large Xmax vs Sd, all PR(s) with Xmax at-least double all woofer(s) Xmax will work.
      A PR max weight is said to be its Mms x3

      PR Systems - tight focus with key parameters.
      PR Speaker Design - thorough coverage.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
        That’s not really how that works. The substitute can, and usually will raise prices because the other alternative is already 25% higher. The sub could raise 20% and still be a cheaper alternative.
        Yes, that's how it works. As I pointed out, since I don't know the details of PE's industry I was just pointing out a generality that may or may not hold for PE. You gave an example that may be true for the speaker industry, which is fine bc that is the OP's point and you do know the industry particulars. But your example would be just one case with particular demand and supply elasticities.

        See this for the wikipedia version.
        See this for the real version.


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        • #19
          There are so many more intricacies to what goes on in global trading. As a person with a small paycheck, I hate to see prices on cheap gear rise but I also see a very lopsided trade deficit. It's money that makes the world go round ... but greed has no bounds.
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

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          • #20
            I just drink.
            Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
              I just drink.
              And China doesn't make anything worth drinking (have you ever tried Baijiu ) to be subject to tariffs, so you should be good to go!!
              Thank goodness Trump didn't put tariffs on Scotland or Russia or Kentucky. (Yes, I know Kentucky is not a country, but the current administration may not.)

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              • #22
                One of the objective of the DIY is to build a high performance audio system.
                While budget builds are a good exercise, it's more often than not, just that, an exercise.
                PE gallery is filled with flocks of speakers build with $9 woofers and $12 tweeters.
                On the other hand, Seas, Scan, Morel were never cheap. Problem is, people don't have $ to spend because the cost of labor in US is falling down.
                Another aspect of inexpensive products from Asia that many choose to disregard is decrease in manufacturing jobs in US. Here's an example. Before PE introduced their budget cabinet, I use to get 2 or 3 orders a month for mid-sized bookshelves, sometimes full size towers. So, I had a helper and part time finisher. Paid them well above minimum wage. And sure my cabinets were a bit nicer. But ones you have a less expensive product that just good enough, "nicer" goes out of the window. So, the helper had to be let go and I don't employ the finisher even part time. But hey, black gloss curved sides cabinets sure are nice.
                That's the cost of bringing "better priced" products to US consumer.
                At some point, consumer can't even afford a budget product. That's what I call a Laughing point.
                http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by r-carpenter View Post
                  It's not exactly China who is beating the prices down. American corporations went there to purchase commodity known as labor on the globalized market. The jobs in US weren't eliminated by Chinese.
                  They were eliminated by Americans.
                  +1. Tariffs won't return jobs to the US because the factories aren't here anymore, and no one is going to build more. There are two reasons for the tariffs. One is to fulfill a campaign promise. The other is to source income to pay for tax cuts. We're not going to stop buying foreign products and instead buy domestic products, because there are no domestic products. We'll buy the same products we've been buying, at a higher price, with the difference going into the US Treasury.
                  www.billfitzmaurice.com
                  www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                  • #24
                    China may soon regret slapping tariffs on US soybeans - CNN

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                    • #25
                      Bottom line, where does the money from the tariffs go? If I understand, directly to the federal government. A 25% tax on all Americans. Think about that on your way to vote today.

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                      • #26
                        This is key: That could have repercussions for China's economy. If the higher costs of importing beans from the United States are passed on to Chinese pig farmers and then to consumers, that could push up inflation and raise living costs. China's economy isn't free market, it's government controlled, so if the Chinese government wants to subsidize the effect of the tariff on their consumers they can and will, because they can afford it.
                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bobgroger View Post
                          Bottom line, where does the money from the tariffs go? If I understand, directly to the federal government. A 25% tax on all Americans. Think about that on your way to vote today.
                          I wish that were the case...even though I disagree with the tariffs, at least that would have been an economically logical argument. But the amount raised by the tariffs will be insignificant relative to the US budget and budget deficit.


                          Originally posted by bobgroger View Post
                          so if the Chinese government wants to subsidize the effect of the tariff on their consumers they can and will, because they can afford it.
                          Note, that is not even the 25% tariffs we have been talking about. China placed retaliatory tariffs on US goods and strategically selected industries that are relevant to the administrations' base. The easiest thing for China to do would be just get rid of them rather than subsidize the effect. Also, this IS what the US is doing...the administration is trying to give farmers subsidies to help them deal with their decreased exports, due to China tariffs, that are only implemented bc of the US tariffs. So essentially we can pay more for speakers and then turn around subsidize farmers.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by a4eaudio View Post
                            the administration is trying to give farmers subsidies to help them deal with their decreased exports, due to China tariffs, that are only implemented bc of the US tariffs. So essentially we can pay more for speakers and then turn around subsidize farmers.
                            This entire scenario isn't unlike lawsuits, where the only ones to make money on the outcome is the lawyers. Tariffs are an 18th century relic long abandoned because they don't protect anyone or anything, but the thought that they do still causes brainless politicians to revive them from time to time for no other reason than to boost their own popularity and fill government coffers at the expense of those very citizens that they're supposedly aiding.

                            www.billfitzmaurice.com
                            www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                            • #29
                              Economic discussion aside (!), the question might be 'how will this affect our hobby'?

                              Tariffs make products more expensive, so we will either buy less, or buy lesser quality and/or do fewer projects. I find this has been the case in Oz, where the $A has now dropped to about US70c. For example, when I made Curt Campbell's 'Slapshots', the RS180Ps were A$65 - they're now A$95. Add another 25% for tariffs and they're suddenly $120 odd and that's getting rather steep: although they're still good value for the quality. So my projects since then have used much cheaper drivers such as Peerless SDS - although they too will be subject to tariffs as they're now made in China.

                              Where I would have said a year ago ,I'll buy X and Y and make something 'just for fun', I can't do that any more.

                              Geoff
                              Last edited by Geoff Millar; 11-06-2018, 05:53 PM.

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                              • #30
                                You guys all OK with this?

                                China | Global Slavery Index

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