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Any tips for GRS 12SW-4 12" woofers?

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  • Any tips for GRS 12SW-4 12" woofers?

    Wife was asking what I wanted for Christmas, she wants something that can be under the tree and that I unwrap.

    I've been very happy with my FAST system using GRS 10" drivers. I run a stereo pair, each located under an end table to which I have my satellites clamped. Here is a thread with an idea of my current setup:

    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...1345969-smslx2

    BUT I was thinking I wouldn't mind upgrading to the GRS 12" drivers. I don't feel like I need to dig any lower, but I wouldn't mind a little more elbow room at higher SPL. I'm currently applying a boost in my software EQ at 30-Hz for the 10" drivers, and at higher SPL the 10" is moving quite a bit (but it sounds amazing).

    ANYWAY, last time with the 10" drivers I used the suggested 1-Ft^3 box per the PE webpage and got good results. I wanted to sort of predict how these 12" drivers would compare, so I decided to model the 12" (new) and 10" (existing) drivers with WinISD. I'm including a pic. The PE page suggests 1.5-ft^3 for the 12" drivers in a sealed box, that is pretty peaky. In the pic I've attached I've increased the volume for the 12" (in yellow) to 2.25-ft^3, and it is still peaky. And I need to get these under my end tables.

    Any suggestions on reducing the peaks w/o increasing volume too drastically? Should I try some sort of aperiodic vent? I looked at ported, that gets REAL peaky.

    Edit to add: I thought I'd be able to model maximum output of the two drivers, or excursion at various output levels. Perhaps I'm missing parameters that aren't specified at the PE page? Any ideas on how the 12" would compare to the 10"?

    Thanks in advance for any help.

  • #2
    Well Phil.....

    As far as Christmas goes your wife could get in a sleeping bag under the tree....

    Lot's of yuletide joy to be sure.....

    On the subject of your GRS woofer that's another thing altogether.

    It's so much work building speakers I can't see anyone going through all of that just give it a black eye by using a $22 woofer!

    I can understand you might not be well off.

    The time and effort required to complete a system though....

    Ask your wife for something else you can use to further your project as she might not be comfortable spending a lot on something like that.

    Save for a while and get the Dayton Classic Subwoofer DCS 305-4 for $85.

    The driver is just one part of the expense of putting together a project and it should be a larger piece of the pie than that.

    The driver may be nearly four times the price of the one you are looking at but that doesn't mean the project will be four times the price or even twice the price.

    I mean you already have a set of GRS woofers you can listen to now so there's no hurry.

    It makes no sense to have a turd and then 'upgrade' by putting forth your effort and hard earned money just to end up with a slightly larger turd?

    A little humor there to shine a light on the situation.

    I think you're awesome Phil don't worry.

    The problem you're seeing with the GRS is that it's Q is 0.98 and Fs is 30hz before you get it near a cabinet!

    Qts(which becomes Qtc) and Fs(which becomes Ftc) just go up putting a driver into a cabinet so if you're trying to get to 0.5-0.7 your not going to get there!

    You did say something about having some sort of filtering in your system that you are applying to your current woofers.

    If it's a parametric filter system you could apply a notch at the peak and get a flatter more extended response.

    You could do a 2ft^3 box with 100% fiberglass fill which would reduce Ftc and Qtc.

    Think it over Phil and do what you will.

    It's about the fun anyway.




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    • #3
      Any modeling (and analysis of said modeling) that doesn't include expected filters is incomplete.

      Apply a LPF to the GRS model and see what happens.

      As someone who has actually spent time with the GRS subs, I will offer the opinion that they are not turds.

      This place is a sewer lately, used to be fun to just bounce ideas around, now I dunno. I understand why people are leaving PETT.
      Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
        Any modeling (and analysis of said modeling) that doesn't include expected filters is incomplete.

        Apply a LPF to the GRS model and see what happens.

        As someone who has actually spent time with the GRS subs, I will offer the opinion that they are not turds.

        This place is a sewer lately, used to be fun to just bounce ideas around, now I dunno. I understand why people are leaving PETT.
        Alright, I'll experiment with that.

        I do like my 10" GRS units a lot.

        I know a lot of people turn their noses up at them. They'd turn their noses up at my entire system, though.

        My wife as already ordered them, though, and is excited to help with construction. And I've never been unhappy with anything she has been involved with.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
          Any modeling (and analysis of said modeling) that doesn't include expected filters is incomplete.

          Apply a LPF to the GRS model and see what happens.

          As someone who has actually spent time with the GRS subs, I will offer the opinion that they are not turds.

          This place is a sewer lately, used to be fun to just bounce ideas around, now I dunno. I understand why people are leaving PETT.
          Yikes Johnny!

          Don't know what brought that on.

          Were all friends, it's good.

          Don't know what GRS was thinking with those specs.....

          It's a good looking driver in a cabinet I'll give 'em that.

          Without spending anymore on the driver they could have given it a looser suspension and shorter voice coil and had a decent driver for the price.

          It makes no sense to start with Fs at 30hz and Qts at 1 for a 12" 'subwoofer'.

          It'll sound thumpy I guess for someone who doesn't know any better.

          PE puts a lot into designing some quality house brand drivers without the boutique prices and much of the time I think it makes sense to use them.

          Just makes the most out the effort you put into your project.

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          • #6
            Those 12's might do very well in an open backed enclosure. Try modeling with a 100 sq. ft. box and see what it looks like.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Billet View Post
              Those 12's might do very well in an open backed enclosure. Try modeling with a 100 sq. ft. box and see what it looks like.
              Yeah they do well there, and the comments have some people using them in pairs in H-Frames, but don't I give up a lot to cancellation in that regard?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by daryl View Post
                It makes no sense to start with Fs at 30hz and Qts at 1 for a 12" 'subwoofer'.
                It makes some sense for an open baffle woofer. It may not be easy to put in a box, however. Who knows though, maybe it will sound good in a sealed box too. It looks like it would make a lot of bass below 100 Hz.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by philthien View Post
                  Yeah they do well there, and the comments have some people using them in pairs in H-Frames, but don't I give up a lot to cancellation in that regard?
                  I have open backed boxes in my main system and the bass is very good. The front baffles are partially open also, but the boxes are ~ 6 cu. ft. so that helps a lot. I use two Visaton WS-17E woofers with a Qts of 0.81.

                  You probably give up some cancellation, but you get a less boxy sound in return. Those woofers look like they could handle some cancellation

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by daryl View Post

                    Yikes Johnny!

                    Don't know what brought that on.

                    Were all friends, it's good.

                    Don't know what GRS was thinking with those specs.....

                    It's a good looking driver in a cabinet I'll give 'em that.

                    Without spending anymore on the driver they could have given it a looser suspension and shorter voice coil and had a decent driver for the price.

                    It makes no sense to start with Fs at 30hz and Qts at 1 for a 12" 'subwoofer'.

                    It'll sound thumpy I guess for someone who doesn't know any better.

                    PE puts a lot into designing some quality house brand drivers without the boutique prices and much of the time I think it makes sense to use them.

                    Just makes the most out the effort you put into your project.
                    I never referred to them as subwoofers, I'm only using them within the music frequency range. I'm aware of their limitations, just trying to make the best of them. I'm very happy with the 10" units.

                    I didn't mean this to be a debate over them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Billet View Post
                      I have open backed boxes in my main system and the bass is very good. The front baffles are partially open also, but the boxes are ~ 6 cu. ft. so that helps a lot. I use two Visaton WS-17E woofers with a Qts of 0.81.
                      The interesting thing is, it would possibly solve one of the design issues I had wanted to address.

                      The rims of the drivers are kind of ugly, so I was thinking of rear-mounting it to the baffle. But I'd need access to the rear of the enclosure. So I could make the enclosure's rear removable and leave it off the cabinets initially and do some listening tests. If I don't like the sound, I could always put the back on and proceed as a sealed speaker.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Billet View Post

                        It makes some sense for an open baffle woofer. It may not be easy to put in a box, however. Who knows though, maybe it will sound good in a sealed box too. It looks like it would make a lot of bass below 100 Hz.
                        I agree low cost open baffle would be a perfect application for these.

                        The sealed box would be a guilty pleasure.

                        Not what you call accurate but prodigious bass emphasis down low enough not to be as tubby as you might think.

                        For the speaker builder though hmmm.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by philthien View Post

                          I never referred to them as subwoofers, I'm only using them within the music frequency range. I'm aware of their limitations, just trying to make the best of them. I'm very happy with the 10" units.

                          I didn't mean this to be a debate over them.
                          Looking at your pictures of your system I see your satellites are small.

                          The 10's fit nicely under that end table.

                          Are you sure you want to change it?

                          I understand you have drivers on the way but it all goes together nicely the way you have it.

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                          • #14
                            You could also magnet mount them, that might be interesting,,,

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by daryl View Post
                              For the speaker builder though hmmm.
                              Oh come on, it isn't THAT bad, the room is going to play with the response anyhow.

                              I'll get it tamed.

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