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The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 Build

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Originally posted by jhollander View Post
    If your router sled is wide enough could you cut both speakers at the same time?
    Hey John, that's a great idea. The sled should be capable of that span, and that will let me set the template up to match the curve on the cabinet that worked well. I bought some Evercoat lightweight body filler during lunch to build up the goofed cabinet, so I can put some icing on that cake tonight and try getting my setup addressed.

    I just need to make it through a few more hours of work shenanigans so I can really put the brainpower into solving THIS problem. I woke up this morning still thinking about this issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • jhollander
    replied
    If your router sled is wide enough could you cut both speakers at the same time?

    Leave a comment:


  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hey Guys,

    A video is coming to better detail this update, but in short - the cabinet top curve is complete! Or at least... one is complete and the other needs a little more work. The router curve method worked out great, just like it did in the past... but my tooling must have been set up incorrectly on the second cabinet, as it actually came out with a slightly different angle, and the rear of the cabinet was about 1/8" taller than the first one. Not satisfied to leave it like that, I reset my tooling and tried again, but something was still off, as now the cabinet has an odd slant to the top if you view it from the front.

    At this point, I'm thinking I'll need to disassemble and rebuild my tooling setup from square one, carefully checking to make sure the heights of both runners are exactly the same at the front and the back. I'll also need to slather on a layer of bondo to the top to rebuild some of the thickness that I've kinda messed up. That way I can make sure my cuts stop at the right height to match the front of the other cabinet. the Bondo brand might be a pain to work with on this large of a repair, so I might invest in a quart of that Rage brand filler that gets marketed to actual autobody shops rather than DIY guys. We'll see on that.

    Anyway, here's some pictures of where I'm at right now. And GOOD LORD those cuts made a lot of dust!

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  • tomzarbo
    replied
    Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
    Hey tomzarbo, That's crazy! I've always heard that glues in general are hard on saw blades. It sounds like your HDF is quite willing to soak up all the glue and transform into something more rock-like than wood-like. I wonder what the thickness of that stack would measure with a pair of calipers. Did your 1/2" stack expand to 9/16" or 5/8" after all that glue?

    Though it may be sturdy, I'd almost be afraid to make a speaker out of it just because of all the sawblades I'd have to buy!
    I just measured the old and the new... There was only about 1/4 of one mm in thickness difference between the two... the newer denser lamination being thicker. The other one had been in the basement for a year or so, I'm not sure this is an accurate comparison, though.

    It is interesting what happens when layers of this stuff are glued up.

    TomZ

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  • Jake
    replied
    KEtheredge87 thanks for the info. I like to try this method in the near future. Square boxes get boring, but it's still about the sound. 😉

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hey tomzarbo, That's crazy! I've always heard that glues in general are hard on saw blades. It sounds like your HDF is quite willing to soak up all the glue and transform into something more rock-like than wood-like. I wonder what the thickness of that stack would measure with a pair of calipers. Did your 1/2" stack expand to 9/16" or 5/8" after all that glue?

    Though it may be sturdy, I'd almost be afraid to make a speaker out of it just because of all the sawblades I'd have to buy!

    Now... Jake , when you say angle frame cuts, I assume you're talking about the curved pieces that make up the skeleton of these cabinets before any HDF layers get applied. There's a few ways you could do this...
    1) Jigsaw and sand-to-line
    2) Bandsaw and sand-to-line
    3) Manually operated router with an appropriate length trammel (i.e. a giant compass) to make the curve radius you want (lots of setup involved here)
    4) Ask a buddy with a CNC router to cut a template out for you!

    I opted for #4 in this case, but I could have done any of the other 3 as well. Some folks think CNC is cheating... I say smoke 'em if you got 'em!

    Hope that helps!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jake
    replied
    Lots of good tips on using this HDF technique. What tool do you guys use to get the angle frame cuts for the "shell" of the speakers? Jigsaw?

    Leave a comment:


  • tomzarbo
    replied
    Keith,
    What I mentioned in my last post up there /|\ was something strange that happened to me when gluing up the fronts to a set of speakers I'm working on.

    I don't want to hijack your thread, but there is a lot of good information about gluing up laminations in your thread already, I hope you don't mind me adding this.

    What you did with these speakers is use 2 sheets of 1/8" HDF per side. As you know, getting those "I wanna stay flat" sheets -- even only 2 per side -- takes a bit of muscle to conform to the curve you're asking them to bend to. That's because they are wide... the height of your intended speaker plus a little for overhang.

    I did 4 layers of 1/8" HDF (a full 1/2" thick) for the fronts of this speaker...

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    … and it bent rather easily since it was only 6" wide or so. I poured glue on each layer as I go, probably a quarter cup of glue maybe? I dunno, but it was a LOT, it seems like way too much and I was feeling like I was going to take a bath in it, but after your incident, I decided glue is cheap, dump it on and scrape it off afterwards. I rolled it out with a veneer glue roller.

    So I did this for the three layers and popped the top layer on. I smacked the 4 layers to try and get them nice and friendly with each other as the layers sat on the table for a few minutes. I take my time with this because I don't want to apply a ton of glue only to literally squeeze it all out again by clamping too quickly... 'let it soak in a bit' my Father would say. So when I finally applied the gorilla polyurethane glue to the speaker carcass and put the 4 layers of HDF on it and clamped it up... I was surprised to see almost no squeeze out. Most of what you can see oozing out is the polyurethane glue, and just a few drops of the wood glue.

    So thinking about it for a minute, I realized that it didn't take much effort to get these relatively narrow pieces of HDF to conform to the frame, light hand pressure did it. The many clamps were just to make sure things stayed snug, I didn't crank down on any of them... a quarter turn and the were almost loose when I removed them.

    Here's where it gets interesting. The top had about 3 inches or so of overhang that I tried to cut off with a newer sabre saw with a carbide tip blade. This same saw/blade combo cuts through 3/4" MDF almost as fast as my 10" Rigid table saw, no lie. Well this thing really had a hard time cutting the scrap piece off. I thought I accidentally was cutting into the cabinet itself it was so slow (heart attack!) But no, it was just the 1/2" HDF layers. I took another piece of the same type of glue up that I had saved from another speaker... same 4 layers, but this one even had a slight curve in it... and the flat scrap I just cut off had a much higher 'plink, plink' to it when tapped. It seemed harder and more rigid... almost like concrete or something.

    I think the fact that the curve was kind of shallow combined with me not cranking down on the clamps too hard allowed all the glue to really absorb into the textured back of each layer, stay in the wood, and make the whole arrangement super-hard. Hard to cut, and really really rigid. I was kind of amazed at just how hard it seems to be. Yeah, I'm getting all worked-up over glue penetration and hardness in scraps of wood, but I thought you and others may find it interesting from an engineering standpoint.

    I'm seriously considering using this technique to make up some flat panels to make a small speaker with in the future as an experiment. No curves, just flat... use a ton of glue, let it really soak in, and use minimal, even clamping pressure just enough to have things contact one another, but not squeeze all the glue out. Then cut it up and build a speaker with it, just to see how stiff the stuff really is.

    Anyway, sorry for the hijack, I hope you don't mind me burping out a few thoughts here in your build thread, but it's interesting material, this laminated HDF stuff.

    TomZ

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Hey Guys - good progress on cabinet A this morning, followed by a delay of game!

    I got the flush trim completed after the epoxy fix, and flush sanded the rear and front panels. I didn't mention that much before, so on the front panels I also took the 60 grit sanding board and gave it some attention. The HDF edges of the front were ever so slightly angled away from the front face due to the way the router was sitting on the curved side for each trim. It wasn't bad to begin with... but this little detail will help with the final fit and finish later. Now the front faces of each cabinet are more equal... or planar... maybe I should just say they're flatter than when I started!

    After the flush trim was done, I could convert my router so I turned attention to a brief cleanup and prep of the router sled for curved top cutting. I quickly realized that my bit depth was not sufficient to make this cut safely, so I ran off to the interwebs to rush deliver an MLCS 1/2" router collet extension to give me enough added length. It should arrive tomorrow.

    For now, my pictures show WHAT ** NOT ** TO DO with router bits... which is chuck them up with barely any shank gripped in the collet.
    That's how bits suddenly fly out and (best case scenario) turn your pants brown...

    I would not make the cut like this. Only showing this for the sake of the photo and explanation of how far off I am.


    With that out of the way... A little more thought revealed the difference between this curved top and my Jedi Mind Tricks subwoofer tops. The subwoofers had material steps on the outside of the cabinet too! In the case of The Defiants, there's no external stair step, which was a conscious choice to make layering and trimming the sides easier. The consequence of that choice is that there's also a lot more material to remove on the outside. That required me to keep my template curve higher from the top surface than I was able to do with the subwoofers. If I had put the template lower on the Defiants, the back side of the sled would be crashing into the cabinet material as it tried to slide down the curve.

    Guess I'll pick this back up tomorrow and work on other stuff in the meantime!

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Originally posted by Wolf View Post
    I would definitely apply a layer of hardboard to the MDF top before veneer if possible. You won't have edge-creep this way.
    Later,
    Wolf
    Thanks Ben, I like that idea and should have enough HDF laying around to accomplish that after router cuts are finished. Can probably use some sandbags as clamps on that kind of surface to distribute the pressure. I'll think on it more as I get there!

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  • Wolf
    replied
    I would definitely apply a layer of hardboard to the MDF top before veneer if possible. You won't have edge-creep this way.
    Later,
    Wolf

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Post #2 for tonight - The Jankapotomus Router Jig

    Most of my setup work appears a bit more "thought out" than this... but tonight it was all free-form design as I prepared for the curved top router cuts. This is definitely the most janky setup I've attempted, but the quality should be there.

    The idea here is to let the router sled to ride on the curve while taking shallow cuts off the top. By setting my final depth equal to the top / front edge of the cabinet, I can use the plunge router turrets to take graduated steps down into the cabinet as I work from left to right taking passes and removing material. I used this same method on my Jedi Mind Trick translam subs to great effect in baltic birch plywood. In fact, the router sled is the same one I built for that project. I really don't need one this wide for The Defiants! Unfortunately, these cabinet tops are just MDF, so it the cut surface won't be nearly as pretty to look at, but that's what veneer is for!

    I'll try to take some more video tomorrow when I make the curved router cuts. I need to use my plunge router one more time on cabinet A to flush cut those edges after the epoxy cures, but then I can swap bits and mount the plunge base on the router sled. It's gonna be a big day!

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    Thanks for all the encouragement friends! Makes it much easier to keep rolling as often as I can.

    Post #1 for tonight - Epoxy fix for cabinet A

    I picked up some 30 minute epoxy today and used a heat gun during the mixing to reduce the viscosity. This method preserves the strength of the final joint at the expense of a reduced pot life, where adding acetone or something else will keep your pot life but reduce the strength of the final joint. Before I started mixing, I prepped the cabinet with some masking tape to contain the mess. Once I started the mix, I would stir for a few seconds, hit it with the heat gun on low... and repeat two or three times until the consistency was nice and runny. Then I poured it into the cracks...which didn't really work. The thinned epoxy still wanted to sit on top of the crack, so I used my popsicle stick ram-rod mixing stick once more to cram it all down where it belonged.

    I mentioned in a previous post how adding heat shortens pot life for the epoxy by speeding up the chain reaction... well here's the proof! This mix of "30 minute epoxy" kicked within 5 minutes due to all the added heat. Everything left in my little mixing cup was hardened by the time I finished stuffing the epoxy into the crack. Science at work!

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  • scottq
    replied
    Looking great Keith! You're handling the speed bumps with great control of jerk and jounce! 👍👍😁😁 Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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  • KEtheredge87
    replied
    That's awesome Bill 4thtry Thanks for sharing

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