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7-8" woofers for 3 ways. will you hear much difference scanspeak RS225

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post

    That may not seem that sound but at 1m you are at almost 100 dB. Not that the RS series won't handle it, but you will likely have lower distortion from the ScanSpeak. For pure bass though, I would look at the Illuminators instead of the Revelators. They have somewhere around 8 mm Klippeled Xmax if I remember correctly. The RS series is more like a true 3.5 mm Klippel. Or you could look at the Dayton Esoteric line. Those have verified Klippel results and can produce some exceptionally clean bass.
    Hi Kerry,

    Do you have a link to the Kipple testing? I'd like to see that. Of the thousands of RS225's used in the Statements designs Curt and I designed, there have been very, very few issues with RS225's. Of those issues, the most common problem is playing electronic music with super low bass at extremely high volumes and bottoming out the driver which mushrooms the voice coil and they are then toast. But, with any kind of common sense use we've had great success with the drivers.

    To echo Paul's comments, under 400-500 Hz. the RS225 does extremely well and my opinion is your money can be better spent on the mids and top end. However, if you're running the woofers up to 800-1000 Hz. in for example a mid dome design, I'd be all in with the scans 8" drivers. They would shine in that application.

    BTW, here's a short clip of the Statements II's at a DIY event demo; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIK-htho-8

    As always, just my opinion and YMMV....

    Jim

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post

      That may not seem that sound but at 1m you are at almost 100 dB. Not that the RS series won't handle it, but you will likely have lower distortion from the ScanSpeak. For pure bass though, I would look at the Illuminators instead of the Revelators. They have somewhere around 8 mm Klippeled Xmax if I remember correctly. The RS series is more like a true 3.5 mm Klippel. Or you could look at the Dayton Esoteric line. Those have verified Klippel results and can produce some exceptionally clean bass.
      I doubt I ever go above those levels. Which means more like mid 80’s most the time

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

        Hi Kerry,

        Do you have a link to the Kipple testing? I'd like to see that. Of the thousands of RS225's used in the Statements designs Curt and I designed, there have been very, very few issues with RS225's. Of those issues, the most common problem is playing electronic music with super low bass at extremely high volumes and bottoming out the driver which mushrooms the voice coil and they are then toast. But, with any kind of common sense use we've had great success with the drivers.

        To echo Paul's comments, under 400-500 Hz. the RS225 does extremely well and my opinion is your money can be better spent on the mids and top end. However, if you're running the woofers up to 800-1000 Hz. in for example a mid dome design, I'd be all in with the scans 8" drivers. They would shine in that application.

        BTW, here's a short clip of the Statements II's at a DIY event demo; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIK-htho-8

        As always, just my opinion and YMMV....

        Jim
        Excellent, I would most likely stay in the 400 hz area. That to me is why I prefer 3 ways is to allow each speaker to really be able to perform in its sweet spot. If I can free a midrange up to not handle low frequency so that I can then pick a midrange that can easily play up to 3500 plus then it takes pressure off the tweeter also. And allows more options on tweeters

        Comment


        • #19
          FWIW, sitting in my sweet spot recliner, my head is 10-12 feet from my speakers (currently the 2-way Briosos with the 8531 midwoofers), depending on whether my recliner is upright or reclined. The average SPL I've measured at my ears is 80 dB, which means the SPL at ~1 meter is likely 90-92 dB (and being shared by two speakers combined). This is plenty loud for my music preferences, instrumental symphonic orchestra, and still allows decent headroom for peaks, yet not too low for most soft passages.
          Paul

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Jesse055 View Post

            Excellent, I would most likely stay in the 400 hz area. That to me is why I prefer 3 ways is to allow each speaker to really be able to perform in its sweet spot. If I can free a midrange up to not handle low frequency so that I can then pick a midrange that can easily play up to 3500 plus then it takes pressure off the tweeter also. And allows more options on tweeters
            Subjectively, either a Peerless NE123 (Statements II mid) or a Satori MR13P would be my 1st choices. IMHO, 3.5K is too high for a 5" driver to cross. A 4" will do it comfortably. Both of these drivers are very low distortion and will provide excellent midrange performance and sound quality.

            HTH

            Jim

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

              Subjectively, either a Peerless NE123 (Statements II mid) or a Satori MR13P would be my 1st choices. IMHO, 3.5K is too high for a 5" driver to cross. A 4" will do it comfortably. Both of these drivers are very low distortion and will provide excellent midrange performance and sound quality.

              HTH

              Jim
              If you don’t mind Jim, is the issue cone breakup in a 5” mid high cross the issue or is it the fwd lobe from the center to center spacing that defines your design criteria?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mayhem13 View Post

                If you don’t mind Jim, is the issue cone breakup in a 5” mid high cross the issue or is it the fwd lobe from the center to center spacing that defines your design criteria?
                This question could be answered much better by Curt than I. He's the crossover guru of our collaboration. That said, here's what I've picked up from him over the years. Selecting a crossover point isn't set in stone, it's based on measurements.Higher frequency breakups, distortion and off axis power response are the main criteria you should look at. They all matter. A rule of thumb is around 2.5K and not over 3K for a 5" driver. If you look at off axis frequency response and it's diverging significantly at 30 degrees off axis, your off axis power response will suffer and so will sound quality. It's also an indicator of head in the vice listening which kills the soundstage, IMHO. To me, thats just not a realistic sound stage.

                My $0.02 worth. Curt's the genius, not I....

                Jim

                Comment


                • #23
                  My vote is for the RS225. A more fair comparison would be the RS225 vs the Scan 22w/8857. I would also consider the Wavecor SW223BD02. Furthering the depth of the rabbit hole, I'd also look at using multiple 7-8 drivers, or using a 10-12" for the low end.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

                    Subjectively, either a Peerless NE123 (Statements II mid) or a Satori MR13P would be my 1st choices. IMHO, 3.5K is too high for a 5" driver to cross. A 4" will do it comfortably. Both of these drivers are very low distortion and will provide excellent midrange performance and sound quality.

                    HTH

                    Jim
                    Yes Jim I am running the NE123 in my statement monitors as I replaced the tang band 1337. I didn’t change the band pass yet but Curt did tell me what to do. Regardless that NE123 sound better.

                    I would also also be flexible on moving to 3000 hz. Or using the 4”.

                    So when you picked the NE mids for the statements II and finalist, how did they compete with some higher end mid ranges? Was it a value proposition or was it a case of outright performance?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jesse055 View Post

                      Yes Jim I am running the NE123 in my statement monitors as I replaced the tang band 1337. I didn’t change the band pass yet but Curt did tell me what to do. Regardless that NE123 sound better.

                      I would also also be flexible on moving to 3000 hz. Or using the 4”.

                      So when you picked the NE mids for the statements II and finalist, how did they compete with some higher end mid ranges? Was it a value proposition or was it a case of outright performance?
                      Hi Jessie,

                      Revelators, SB Satori's or Peerless NE series drivers performance is extremely subjective and opinions will vary with everyone. Measurement wise, they're all stellar. Another driver to throw in the mix is the SB CAC series. Powrider (Craig) had a two way based on a SB15CAC and a HiVi planer at Iowa that was very impressive. The CAC measures super low distortion and has an innovative cone design.

                      Which one sounds best? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I like vocals from the NE's better than Revelators. Others wouldn't agree. I haven't spent enough time listening to Satori's to have a firm opinion. The CAC is very high on my radar.

                      Sorry I can't be of more help but its all subjective so I's suggest you try to listen at DIY events or to proven designs using the drivers to make up your own mind. Yep, no help at all...

                      jim

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

                        This question could be answered much better by Curt than I. He's the crossover guru of our collaboration. That said, here's what I've picked up from him over the years. Selecting a crossover point isn't set in stone, it's based on measurements.Higher frequency breakups, distortion and off axis power response are the main criteria you should look at. They all matter. A rule of thumb is around 2.5K and not over 3K for a 5" driver. If you look at off axis frequency response and it's diverging significantly at 30 degrees off axis, your off axis power response will suffer and so will sound quality. It's also an indicator of head in the vice listening which kills the soundstage, IMHO. To me, thats just not a realistic sound stage.

                        My $0.02 worth. Curt's the genius, not I....

                        Jim
                        Can you elaborate on diverging significantly? It seems everyone has differing opinions on what should happen off axis. I've built many speakers, but have not been able to pin down why I like one more than another.

                        For example, do you think that this response is this diverging significantly?
                        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fi...4&d=1549767988

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          To mimic what Mr. Holtz said regarding the rs225 and extremely loud electronic music. There is no warning before they bottom and when they do, they protest very loudly. You will jump out of the chair when they make that drat sound. Fortunately, the spl level at which they give up is way up into the uncomfortable zone. With something similar to the Statements I have never felt the need for a sub and the few times I tried to integrate the IB's into the scene they only muddied the bass. The rs225 are very good on bottom.
                          Last edited by Kornbread; 03-26-2019, 09:04 PM.
                          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rpb View Post

                            Can you elaborate on diverging significantly? It seems everyone has differing opinions on what should happen off axis. I've built many speakers, but have not been able to pin down why I like one more than another.

                            For example, do you think that this response is this diverging significantly?
                            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fi...4&d=1549767988
                            I am no expert on crossovers. I try to pick Curt's brain as much as I can so I can at least talk semi inteligently when asked questions. So what I'm posting is my take on information Curt shared.

                            Here is an example of SB's frequency graph for the mid driver we used in the Anthology's.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            Curt chose to cross these at 2K. They have excellent off axis power response. I'm sure there were other factors in his decision but the 30 degree off axis was a good part of it.

                            HTH

                            JIm

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

                              Hi Jessie,

                              Revelators, SB Satori's or Peerless NE series drivers performance is extremely subjective and opinions will vary with everyone. Measurement wise, they're all stellar. Another driver to throw in the mix is the SB CAC series. Powrider (Craig) had a two way based on a SB15CAC and a HiVi planer at Iowa that was very impressive. The CAC measures super low distortion and has an innovative cone design.

                              Which one sounds best? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I like vocals from the NE's better than Revelators. Others wouldn't agree. I haven't spent enough time listening to Satori's to have a firm opinion. The CAC is very high on my radar.

                              Sorry I can't be of more help but its all subjective so I's suggest you try to listen at DIY events or to proven designs using the drivers to make up your own mind. Yep, no help at all...

                              jim
                              Jim, you are always a help and I certainly appreciate you and all you do for DIY. I find you to be gracious and always willing to respond and help us DIY. Listening to speakers and music is subjective by nature and we can’t take that out of the discussion as subjective maybe the ultimate judgement. Subjective is fine with me and your “subjective” opinion and assessment is valued so I appreciate your input and opinions.

                              So I am very impressed that you like the NE series mids compared to the likes of revelators and satori. Why spend double and triple when the returns are not there?

                              I guess my next question to you would be of the different tweeters you have worked with(RS28f, Aurum 2560, Fountek, Morel CAT323, Seas 22tff, etc) which did you enjoy the most? I know it’s subjective so I’m interested in your subjective answer.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jim Holtz View Post

                                Hi Jessie,

                                Revelators, SB Satori's or Peerless NE series drivers performance is extremely subjective and opinions will vary with everyone. Measurement wise, they're all stellar. Another driver to throw in the mix is the SB CAC series. Powrider (Craig) had a two way based on a SB15CAC and a HiVi planer at Iowa that was very impressive. The CAC measures super low distortion and has an innovative cone design.

                                Which one sounds best? It depends on who you ask. Personally, I like vocals from the NE's better than Revelators. Others wouldn't agree. I haven't spent enough time listening to Satori's to have a firm opinion. The CAC is very high on my radar.

                                Sorry I can't be of more help but its all subjective so I's suggest you try to listen at DIY events or to proven designs using the drivers to make up your own mind. Yep, no help at all...

                                jim
                                Thanks Jim, appreciate your opinions. So what has been your favorite tweeter of the ones you and Curt have utilized?

                                Comment

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