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  • #16
    I’m just assuming the wbt is good......it seems to have good workability.

    Like devnull says the mechanical connection is more important.

    How much conductivity (percentage wise) does the solder itself have compared to the wire? I suppose that’s what the silver is all about?

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    • #17
      Also courtesy of Ethan Winer:



      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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      • #18
        Why...that second picture looks like our lab at work!
        Francis

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        • #19
          all my pixies are thoroughly cryogenically treated

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          • #20
            Just be prepared for the next audio show when you get cornered in the full range speaker/ SET amp room by a roving gang of soldermites.

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            • #21
              Nice to see you fellers loosen up a little, i was starting to think requirement #7 for being a real speaker engineer was to sign away your sense of humor! ;)

              i’m Still gonna stick with what I hear though.....i’ve got no reason to sway my observations in any direction, as in I don’t wish for it to be so it is.....if it’s good it's good, if it’s not I ask on here and provide y’all with some entertainment!

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              • #22
                I'm an RF circuit design engineer, not an audio engineer, so I was allowed to keep my sense of humor. For now...
                Francis

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                • #23
                  10% silver solder from Switzerland FTW!

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                  • #24
                    If you want to minimize "cold" joints, then:

                    A. Don't use silver solder.
                    B. Do use a 63/37 alloy.

                    If you are making good mechanical connections, an argument could be made that much of soldering is a waste of time (on crossovers). As is, it should be approached as a weld, not as part of the circuit per se. Add some type of mechanical restraint to the components and the attachments and it is even less of a concern to solder.

                    But if we must solder, then learn how to properly do point to point and use the right solder and you will not have any issues - which should render moot questions about soldering changing sonic signatures on components.
                    Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post
                      I’m just assuming the wbt is good......it seems to have good workability.

                      Like devnull says the mechanical connection is more important.

                      How much conductivity (percentage wise) does the solder itself have compared to the wire? I suppose that’s what the silver is all about?
                      More coffee thoughts...

                      1. Most solder has between 9 and 12% the conductivity of copper. Adding silver to it has a measurable but usually negligible change to the resistance of the joint. The resistance of the solder joint itself is fractions of a percent of the loss of the conductors. It's all cross section and thickness, so your solder joint is usually thin but relatively wide. You don't solder wire end to end, minimum cross section, give them a twist and then solder, much more cross section with lower resistance.

                      2. Silver is usually used in solder to change it's mechanical properties, melting point and the ability to wet and to reduce migration. Silver content in solder helps it bond to stainless steel and to reduce migration in silver plated connections. Varying the melting point of solder allows components to be soldered to boards in multiple stages. Higher temperature solder is used first followed by progressively lower temperatures.

                      My background is in the shapes of the conductors and connectors and getting signals on and off packaging and silicon. I personally have never done any in depth research, some ancillary work, into the differences in solder joints done with various flavors of solder but if someone actually said they could hear the difference I would say show me the reproducible data.

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                      • #26
                        Solder can change the sonic signature, if it's used as the conductor, because of the low conductivity of tin. Three or four feet of tin wire instead of copper could have an effect, although it would take at least 20 feet for the effect to be audible. Silver solder has higher conductivity, but even if the conductors are not touching and the signal current passes through solder alone the distance is too small to make any difference. It might if electron waves traveled at the speed of sound, but the fly in the ointment that audiophools consistently overlook is that an electron wave passes through a conductor at about 70% the speed of light. Using pure silver wire is a fool's errand. Silver is roughly 7% more conductive than copper. To realize the exact same result a copper wire would have to be 7% shorter or 7% larger in cross section than silver. Saving that 7% of cross section area is hardly worth spending a hundred times the price of copper for silver. Silver doesn't even make sense where saving weight is concerned, as it has four times the mass of copper.
                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
                          If you want to minimize "cold" joints, then:

                          A. Don't use silver solder.
                          B. Do use a 63/37 alloy.

                          If you are making good mechanical connections, an argument could be made that much of soldering is a waste of time (on crossovers). As is, it should be approached as a weld, not as part of the circuit per se. Add some type of mechanical restraint to the components and the attachments and it is even less of a concern to solder.

                          But if we must solder, then learn how to properly do point to point and use the right solder and you will not have any issues - which should render moot questions about soldering changing sonic signatures on components.
                          So which brand of 63/37 is best?

                          So if an improper solder joint can change the sonic signature I’m supposing that’s what happened here, the family is here for spring break and I haven’t had time to re-solder yet and may wait until I get some ‘proper’ solder. But after demoing for the family yesterday it is definately different.....there is a fraction ‘less’ especially on bottom.
                          Which would make sense as it’s the woofer inductors solder joints in question.....I probably had it right the first time and not as much when reassembled.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by devnull View Post

                            More coffee thoughts...

                            1. Most solder has between 9 and 12% the conductivity of copper. Adding silver to it has a measurable but usually negligible change to the resistance of the joint. The resistance of the solder joint itself is fractions of a percent of the loss of the conductors. It's all cross section and thickness, so your solder joint is usually thin but relatively wide. You don't solder wire end to end, minimum cross section, give them a twist and then solder, much more cross section with lower resistance.

                            2. Silver is usually used in solder to change it's mechanical properties, melting point and the ability to wet and to reduce migration. Silver content in solder helps it bond to stainless steel and to reduce migration in silver plated connections. Varying the melting point of solder allows components to be soldered to boards in multiple stages. Higher temperature solder is used first followed by progressively lower temperatures.

                            My background is in the shapes of the conductors and connectors and getting signals on and off packaging and silicon. I personally have never done any in depth research, some ancillary work, into the differences in solder joints done with various flavors of solder but if someone actually said they could hear the difference I would say show me the reproducible data.
                            Thanks devnull,

                            I’ve been twisting the leads 3/8”-1/2” and tightening them up with a small pair of needle nose but they do tend to come ‘undone’ while soldering......might make up a jig out of my old fly tying rig to help with that.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                              Solder can change the sonic signature, if it's used as the conductor, because of the low conductivity of tin. Three or four feet of tin wire instead of copper could have an effect, although it would take at least 20 feet for the effect to be audible. Silver solder has higher conductivity, but even if the conductors are not touching and the signal current passes through solder alone the distance is too small to make any difference. It might if electron waves traveled at the speed of sound, but the fly in the ointment that audiophools consistently overlook is that an electron wave passes through a conductor at about 70% the speed of light. Using pure silver wire is a fool's errand. Silver is roughly 7% more conductive than copper. To realize the exact same result a copper wire would have to be 7% shorter or 7% larger in cross section than silver. Saving that 7% of cross section area is hardly worth spending a hundred times the price of copper for silver. Silver doesn't even make sense where saving weight is concerned, as it has four times the mass of copper.
                              Not to argue with a professional and all but i’m thinking if there’s any kind of bottleneck as in a cold solder joint it may well be audible......as may be my case.

                              think of a vehicle going along at speed on good pavement then hitting a patch of unpaved rough gravel for 50yds or so then back to pavement......the vehicle will be upset by this.

                              Less gravel = better sound.....no?

                              I also believe there is some substance to using better quality material for interconnects and such.....but much past good enough I agree is a waste.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post
                                there is a fraction ‘less’ especially on bottom.
                                Is there any way you may have somehow wired the woofers out of polarity with one another upon reassembly? the simplest things often get overlooked.

                                Paul O

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