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Soldering xo change sound?

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  • #46
    Here's my theory, and it has nothing to do with solder joints. When you were initially voicing the crossover, you were fresh, feeling good, and coffee was kicking in. After re-soldering, you were maybe tired, caffeine wearing off, distracted, hungry. The sound improved after you ate, rested, got some more coffee. I'm not trying to be condescending, but I know my perception of how good or bad stuff sounds has a lot to do with my mood, mental state, or listening fatigue.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by chad1376 View Post
      Here's my theory, and it has nothing to do with solder joints. When you were initially voicing the crossover, you were fresh, feeling good, and coffee was kicking in. After re-soldering, you were maybe tired, caffeine wearing off, distracted, hungry. The sound improved after you ate, rested, got some more coffee. I'm not trying to be condescending, but I know my perception of how good or bad stuff sounds has a lot to do with my mood, mental state, or listening fatigue.
      Same here. I always give a few listens to a setup before reaching any firm conclusions.
      Francis

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      • #48
        My theory is none of the engineers on this thread took a course in material science in school..Both capacitors and inductors are changing shape and mechanical resonances after heating from soldering.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by fdieck View Post
          My theory is none of the engineers took in this thread took a course in material science in school..
          Troll much?
          Francis

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          • #50
            Thanks for the help



            A) i don’t know how it’s possible to change polarity of an inductor, unless you wired it into the wrong leg; but no I did not do that......so that’s out.

            B) if a cold solder joint doesn’t matter to the sound than why does it matter at all?

            C) i’ve worked in manufacturing, and can tell you your lucky if the solder (for this example)is the same comparing which day it was made never mind between different manufacturers.....I have yet to see anything produced that could not be made better by one company compared to another..... So I would say indeed there could be a better brand of 63/37 than another. Not a stupid question imo.

            D) my mood doesn’t change much.......I’m the most even keeled person you’ve probably ever met. But that aside, whenever I commit to working on something meant to distract myself (hobby) I’m oblivious to most everything else.....I mean unless the house was on fire etc. I’m 100% committed to the task at hand (purposefully) it’s cathartic.
            I also base these decisions over days sometimes going back and forth several different times.

            I don’t dismiss the fact that psycho acoustics play a big role in what people ‘hear’ but being aware of that is half the battle...... the way things are described here I should have been right back to my happy place after putting it back to where I was happy before? I’m not feeble minded and can definately detach myself emotionally to avoid bias.......Something with the sound was different (all else the same)......i’m Not saying it was the solder joint, I was asking if it was possible.

            I assume you fellers know of what you speak.......that’s why I ask.

            I mean this seriously not sarcastically .....if one can’t hear the differences between caps (as many do) i’m having a hard time believing they would hear any other differences if there were one? I’m not saying I could pull a jantzen out of a blind test lineup but I certainly could tell there was a difference in my own system .
            A normal person might find these derogatory comments disconcerting enough to just buy into it. And maybe that’s what some were taught.....that there are no differences so that’s that.

            Having no formal education in this gives one a ‘child’s eye view’ as in nothing is predetermined.

            Magic? Well, I wouldn’t mind having those pixies in my shop ;)

            I suppose what i’m Saying is if you don’t believe that I (or anyone else for that matter) can hear subtle differences your not gonna change my mind into thinking it’s ‘just me’
            because I have no doubt whatsoever in what i’m hearing is real (it’s the same and repeatable)......I just don’t know what it is or what may have caused it.



            bob

            Edit.... and I suppose it would be in an amateurs best interest to use a heat sink...no?






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            • #51
              If it can be heard it can be measured. For that matter what can be measured is far more than what can be heard. If you want to prove your point measure it and post it.
              www.billfitzmaurice.com
              www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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              • #52
                Originally posted by fdieck View Post
                My theory is none of the engineers on this thread took a course in material science in school..Both capacitors and inductors are changing shape and mechanical resonances after heating from soldering.
                I looked up molecular changes in metal from heat after seeing this and changes in resistance and magnetism can occur around 600F and above......so maybe that has something to do with it?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post

                  I looked up molecular changes in metal from heat after seeing this and changes in resistance and magnetism can occur around 600F and above......so maybe that has something to do with it?
                  You must live in a really warm place.
                  Francis

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                  • #54
                    As dcibel pointed out, some differences in flux but that is application dependent. The 63/37 is a description of an alloy. Changes would not be worse or better, as it would lose eutectic properties by making it different. Building solder is a very mature process.

                    600 degrees might induce some changes, but if you are hitting that temp soldering you have bigger problems.
                    Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
                      As dcibel pointed out, some differences in flux but that is application dependent. The 63/37 is a description of an alloy. Changes would not be worse or better, as it would lose eutectic properties by making it different. Building solder is a very mature process.

                      600 degrees might induce some changes, but if you are hitting that temp soldering you have bigger problems.

                      figured i’d Let you know that a few days ago I cut out all the solder joint in question putting it back to the temporary wire nuts (which are about as solid as a temp connection gets) and whatever had changed the sound was still the same, so what happened definately had nothing to do with the solder joint or the actual solder.......I still haven’t dismissed that the gun itself may have been the culprit.

                      The investigation continues......and no I’m not chasing gremlins. In fact I don’t get why you fellers just can’t grasp the concept? I mean don’t you hear any differences in your own systems when you make changes? Or if something is wrong .....all due respect but i’m Just having a hard time understanding what y’all CAN hear? Or is everything based on measurements? Do you ignore something you might hear if it measures the same?

                      These are serious questions

                      bob

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post
                        Do you ignore something you might hear if it measures the same?
                        Yes. My measuring gear exceeds the hearing ability of a human being by a factor of at least 10:1, and it's not susceptible to placebo effect, sighted expectation or confirmation bias. You may very well be hearing something, but without taking the necessary measurements to identify it you may never know if you are and if so what the cause is.

                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                        • #57
                          I will readily admit that the placebo effect exist and that good measurements have their place in audio design. But how do they explain hearing changes that you don’t expect and we’re not looking for and how do you know what exactly to measure?

                          Some interesting stuff on heat heat effects on film capacitors.
                          http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/4363162

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                          • #58
                            I always take my measurements with a grain of salt. It doesn't take a lot to change a measurement, but it does give you a fairly reasonable comparison. The microphone moved by an inch, an extra pile of books on a coffee table, a throw rug moved, background noise, the speaker moved. That said, I usually take reference measurement before I start playing with things. Some changes just sound wrong, some things sound different. Different right, different wrong is completely up to you, which sound do you prefer? If you think it's changed then a measurement is a good way to confirm that it really has, if your ears can hear it, it's gonna be measurable.

                            If I can't decide which "sound" I like better I'll listen for few days to a lot of different music. Do I sweat the small stuff, occasionally it's the anal retentive engineer in me coming out, but at the end of the day if I listen and I've got a smile on face then the speaker is doing it's job.


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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post


                              figured i’d Let you know that a few days ago I cut out all the solder joint in question putting it back to the temporary wire nuts (which are about as solid as a temp connection gets) and whatever had changed the sound was still the same, so what happened definately had nothing to do with the solder joint or the actual solder.......I still haven’t dismissed that the gun itself may have been the culprit.

                              The investigation continues......and no I’m not chasing gremlins. In fact I don’t get why you fellers just can’t grasp the concept? I mean don’t you hear any differences in your own systems when you make changes? Or if something is wrong .....all due respect but i’m Just having a hard time understanding what y’all CAN hear? Or is everything based on measurements? Do you ignore something you might hear if it measures the same?

                              These are serious questions

                              bob
                              Oh, pretty sure people grasp the concept.
                              Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Ultimately I think you got a defective part Bob. That happens, and it's possible soldering or manipulating the leads is what pushed it over the edge.

                                This whole thing has spun into some interesting engineering discussions, which are quite valid and measurements should be considered if you can. But ultimately the sound you want is subjective and entirely up to you.

                                So keep playing with your parts to get the sound you want, does it make you enjoy the music? That's the whole point.
                                Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
                                Wogg Music
                                Published projects: PPA100 Bass Guitar Amp, ISO El-Cheapo Sub, Indy 8 2.1 powered sub, MicroSat, SuperNova Minimus

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