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  • #61
    Thanks for the responses,

    Bill, you can honestly say you’ve never come across a change in sound that you couldn’t measure or pin down? and if you couldn’t.....you’d just write it off as your imagination?

    I have a hard time wrapping my head around that!

    can speaker measuring equipment pick up on a amp signature, or a dac signature? Or do they just measure the same and that’s why some say there’s no difference in sound between amps or dac’s?

    Again a serious question.

    bob

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post


      figured i’d Let you know that a few days ago I cut out all the solder joint in question putting it back to the temporary wire nuts (which are about as solid as a temp connection gets) and whatever had changed the sound was still the same, so what happened definately had nothing to do with the solder joint or the actual solder.......I still haven’t dismissed that the gun itself may have been the culprit.

      The investigation continues......and no I’m not chasing gremlins. In fact I don’t get why you fellers just can’t grasp the concept? I mean don’t you hear any differences in your own systems when you make changes? Or if something is wrong .....all due respect but i’m Just having a hard time understanding what y’all CAN hear? Or is everything based on measurements? Do you ignore something you might hear if it measures the same?

      These are serious questions

      bob
      You are making some bad assumptions! Many of us have decent measurement setups, and can measure the differences that you currently can't. You don't know how, and you don't want to understand why we measure the way we do. You simply think that your way is better. I also expect that most of the better designers on the forum hear at least as well as you do, and in addition, can correlate most of what they hear with what they measure! I know I can. They can adjust the response to what they want it to sound like in their room, or sometimes optimize it for a DIY get together, which would often call for a slightly different tonal balance. . It is you that can't seem to grasp the big picture. I've made speakers that I made dozens of different x-overs for. They measure slightly different, and they sound slightly different. Changing a 5.1uf cap for a 5.6uf cap will change both sound, and measurement. Crossing at 2k vs 2.5k sounds different too. I've paired some woofers with 5 or more different tweeters. I could prefer one over the other depending on my mood, what I'm listening to, and probably how loud I'm playing the music.

      Comment


      • #63
        Wogg not sure about the defective part bit.....it’s both channels and seems quite even, also I wouldn’t call what I’m talking about defective in any way shape or form.

        if I had to label the change it would be more ‘sterile’
        before the change I had this awesome ‘air of emotion’ for lack of better term. It was very pleasant and engaging.......now it sounds accurate with the correctness that was there before but no icing on the cake so to speak.

        Never should have messed with it.....it was that good !

        and yes I like working on things just as much as using them

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by rpb View Post

          You are making some bad assumptions! Many of us have decent measurement setups, and can measure the differences that you currently can't. You don't know how, and you don't want to understand why we measure the way we do. You simply think that your way is better. I also expect that most of the better designers on the forum hear at least as well as you do, and in addition, can correlate most of what they hear with what they measure! I know I can. They can adjust the response to what they want it to sound like in their room, or sometimes optimize it for a DIY get together, which would often call for a slightly different tonal balance. . It is you that can't seem to grasp the big picture. I've made speakers that I made dozens of different x-overs for. They measure slightly different, and they sound slightly different. Changing a 5.1uf cap for a 5.6uf cap will change both sound, and measurement. Crossing at 2k vs 2.5k sounds different too. I've paired some woofers with 5 or more different tweeters. I could prefer one over the other depending on my mood, what I'm listening to, and probably how loud I'm playing the music.
          Well I replied then tried to edit and lost it to the spam trap! So if you see a different version of the same response later that’s why.

          basically I said......yah I get all that, but the consensus is that there’s no measureable difference between caps of the same type/value of different manufacturer and/or material therefore there is no differences between them in sound. Basically there are no ‘better’ xo components than the other.....apples for apples.

          correct me if i’m Misunderstanding what’s being said.

          I say i’m hearing differences and sometimes the ‘better’ component actually sounds worse......so that in of itself should eliminate a possible placebo effect?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post
            Bill, you can honestly say you’ve never come across a change in sound that you couldn’t measure or pin down?b
            I have not. But I've measured many changes that were too subtle to hear. This subject comes up on a regular basis, and 99 times out of 98 those who deny the validity of the worth of measurements are incapable of taking them and/or interpreting them.
            can speaker measuring equipment pick up on a amp signature, or a dac signature?
            Of course it can. Science always works, whether you understand it or not.
            www.billfitzmaurice.com
            www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
              I have not. But I've measured many changes that were too subtle to hear. This subject comes up on a regular basis, and 99 times out of 98 those who deny the validity of the worth of measurements are incapable of taking them and/or interpreting them.
              Of course it can. Science always works, whether you understand it or not.
              I’m hardly denying validity or worth just questioning the all end all aspect of it.

              so your saying that amps and dacs do indeed have signature sounds and they are measureable.......because I also see many controversies over that one also.
              i myself have always been in the camp that hears the differences.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post

                Well I replied then tried to edit and lost it to the spam trap! So if you see a different version of the same response later that’s why.

                basically I said......yah I get all that, but the consensus is that there’s no measureable difference between caps of the same type/value of different manufacturer and/or material therefore there is no differences between them in sound. Basically there are no ‘better’ xo components than the other.....apples for apples.

                correct me if i’m Misunderstanding what’s being said.

                I say i’m hearing differences and sometimes the ‘better’ component actually sounds worse......so that in of itself should eliminate a possible placebo effect?
                Caps have tolerances that may effect their actual value. I have one "fancy" cap that I bought a long time ago. If I put it in a tweeter filter, and compare the response to the same cap value as made by Dayton, the difference is easy to see in the measurement. It's a big difference. It's an 8uf cap. The response measures like a 7uf cap. Without measurement gear, it would be easy to think that the difference in sound was because the cap was "better", when it actually measured different due to the value. And like you said, sometimes different is not better. It's just different, or maybe even worse. I have a cap that I think sounds good. It's a 4uf, but has a plus or minus 20% tolerance. So, I may be fooling myself on occasions too. It is a 400v rated cap. I've had it for ever. I'm sure it was inexpensive.
                A while back, I was going to order some Audyn caps because many say they are better, and only cost a little more. They have limited values, and the value I wanted was not listed as I recall. So it would be a little bit of an apples oranges comparison if I had purchased them, if the values were not the same, or at least, very close. I have no way of measuring the capacitance, but I can measure what it does in the filter.
                If you hear a difference, there's at least the possibility that you are comparing a cap that may be 5% higher or lower in capacitance. For most designs, that 5% will not be an issue, but while in pursuit of perfection, it might be. What sounds detailed to me, may sound edgy to someone else. One of my friends said one of my speakers sounded harsh. Ouch. I didn't agree, but he's welcome to his opinion. He based that review on one tune that might have been poorly recorded, and I was playing it rather loud.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post

                  I get all that, but the consensus is that there’s no measureable difference between caps of the same type/value of different manufacturer and/or material therefore there is no differences between them in sound. Basically there are no ‘better’ xo components than the other.....apples for apples.

                  correct me if i’m Misunderstanding what’s being said.

                  I say i’m hearing differences and sometimes the ‘better’ component actually sounds worse......so that in of itself should eliminate a possible placebo effect?
                  That is far from the consensus, now you are deliberately setting up strawmen.

                  The actual consensus is that a lot of people simply want to believe in unicorns and are threatened by the thought that what they want to believe is a special skill/talent/gift/whatever can be quantified. Like claiming carb tuning affects suspension tuning... Given that suspensions are reactive systems, it should come as no surprise that modifying the input (power curve) will yield a different "feel".
                  Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post

                    so your saying that amps and dacs do indeed have signature sounds and they are measureable.......because I also see many controversies over that one also.
                    i myself have always been in the camp that hears the differences.
                    I hear differences in amps and DACs but I can tell you if I can hear them they are measurable. The question would be what to measure as there could be multiple different things such as frequency response, distortion, or phase to name a few.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      In the absence of mis-wiring the XO when soldering, I subscribe to the postulations of PWR RYD and fpitas. Especially since, IIRC, the OP said both L & R exhibit the difference. The extra impedance in the clip connections changes the XO response. Despite the model, components don't measure to their exact values and/or the extra impedance results in a better sound to the OP.

                      To throw gas on the solder flames, I offer this ....

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Kitchen.png Views:	1 Size:	374.6 KB ID:	1410573

                      If your still reading ... I swear by the Radio Shack 60/40 .032" diameter rosin core solder. I bought a 1/2 lb roll to last me the rest of my life (but my neighbor, that builds tube guitar amps as a business, also loves it so I have precious little left).

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        So is there a difference in speaker cables and are they measurable?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by rpb View Post

                          Caps have tolerances that may effect their actual value. I have one "fancy" cap that I bought a long time ago. If I put it in a tweeter filter, and compare the response to the same cap value as made by Dayton, the difference is easy to see Ed’s in the measurement. It's a big difference. It's an 8uf cap. The response measures like a 7uf cap. Without measurement gear, it would be easy to think that the difference in sound was because the cap was "better", when it actually measured different due to the value. And like you said, sometimes different is not better. It's just different, or maybe even worse. I have a cap that I think sounds good. It's a 4uf, but has a plus or minus 20% tolerance. So, I may be fooling myself on occasions too. It is a 400v rated cap. I've had it for ever. I'm sure it was inexpensive.
                          A while back, I was going to order some Audyn caps because many say they are better, and only cost a little more. They have limited values, and the value I wanted was not listed as I recall. So it would be a little bit of an apples oranges comparison if I had purchased them, if the values were not the same, or at least, very close. I have no way of measuring the capacitance, but I can measure what it does in the filter.
                          If you hear a difference, there's at least the possibility that you are comparing a cap that may be 5% higher or lower in capacitance. For most designs, that 5% will not be an issue, but while in pursuit of perfection, it might be. What sounds detailed to me, may sound edgy to someone else. One of my friends said one of my speakers sounded harsh. Ouch. I didn't agree, but he's welcome to his opinion. He based that review on one tune that might have been poorly recorded, and I was playing it rather loud.
                          I can buy into this as a partial explanation but some of the differences I’m hearing are in soundstage, air, quietness, dynamics, speed....etc. things that are across the board and not really relative to the xo point.....although I may be wrong in this assumption I make this assumption based on the experience of moving up and down from the recommended values with the same brand caps......I only notice the change in a different brand/style cap altogether.

                          ESR may play more into what I’m hearing than the uf values......there may be other things i’m not even aware of. I need a little more education in ESR etc.

                          dont get me wrong as soon as I’m done with the cabinetry in my house and get my dedicated system dialed I plan to work on some measuring tools and skills......you think I’m a pita now! lol

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post

                            That is far from the consensus, now you are deliberately setting up strawmen.

                            The actual consensus is that a lot of people simply want to believe in unicorns and are threatened by the thought that what they want to believe is a special skill/talent/gift/whatever can be quantified. Like claiming carb tuning affects suspension tuning... Given that suspensions are reactive systems, it should come as no surprise that modifying the input (power curve) will yield a different "feel".
                            All I know is i do hear a lot of things other people don’t......I like to consider myself more special than average. lol

                            but really the straw man (if one actually is set up) is due to the fact everyone and their brother has been telling me that it’s all in my head.....well it is to a point (isn’t it in everyone’s ?) but my observations are repeatable and constant......not just because I was hungry and sad today!

                            cut a brutha some slack Johnny! I feel what your layin down.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                              So is there a difference in speaker cables and are they measurable?
                              Some of them and yes it can be measured. Capacitance, inductance, and resistance.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by killa View Post

                                I hear differences in amps and DACs but I can tell you if I can hear them they are measurable. The question would be what to measure as there could be multiple different things such as frequency response, distortion, or phase to name a few.
                                Things like that probably boil down to what they sound like to the individual more than the actual measurements matter......most modern mid-fi and up measure with acceptable specs, or am I again assuming too much?

                                Comment

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