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It’s that time audio enthusiasts! Registration for the 2019 Speaker Design Competition is now open! Visit midwestaudiofest.com for details and to list your speaker project. We are excited to see all returning participants, and look forward to meeting some new designers this year, as well! Be sure your plans include a visit to the Parts Express Tent Sale for the lowest prices of the year, and the Audio Swap Meet where you can buy and trade with other audio fans. We hope to see you this summer! Vivian and Jill
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Sound Quality:* What matters and what doesen't?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mountainman Bob View Post

    I’m thinking not everyone hears the same and from experience with my wife some don’t even notice existing sounds.....this is not from a hearing deficit Per se but for lack of a better term I’m gonna say disregard, or maybe disinterest.....or is it maybe lack of understanding?

    Just as there are professional tasters, smellers, etc. that are trained in perception why can one not be trained in listening?

    its also really not that big a leap to think a certain percentage of the population is just more apt to be able hear something that the rest can’t.......could be as simple as how ones brain is wired..... you know, maybe one was soldered with 63/37 instead of 60/40!

    Seriosly though i don’t think it’s as black and white as ‘there are no differences and you all are hearing dancing fairies and farting unicorns’
    I agree not every one hears the same, the same way not everyone has the same eye sight, smell, and taste. Just like any physical senses it can be trained....If one of the senses is gone the others can be trained to compensate for that loss by heightening the other senses.

    Not trying to start another argument but a lot of scientific theories are based on dancing fairies and farting unicorns. LOL

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    • #62
      https://youtu.be/YFKT4jvN4OE

      ​​​​​​Humans are unbelievably prone to suggestion. Wine and capacitor (and apparently solder) aficionados particularly so.

      We also love to wallow in cognitive bias, which is why find it easy to dismiss evidence that challenges our belief system. I used to think coffee people engaged in some serious delusion, pretty sure we audio guys take the cake.
      Last edited by johnnyrichards; 04-18-2019, 07:34 PM. Reason: Typo
      Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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      • #63
        I'll point out another elephant in this room. It's doubtful any capacitor, no matter how boutique, is adding anything desirable to the sound. Perhaps the better ones don't degrade the sound as much. But to me that says, if you're really anxious about this stuff, get rid of caps, inductors etc. and go active.
        Francis

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        • #64
          Originally posted by fpitas View Post
          I'll point out another elephant in this room. It's doubtful any capacitor, no matter how boutique, is adding anything desirable to the sound. Perhaps the better ones don't degrade the sound as much. But to me that says, if you're really anxious about this stuff, get rid of caps, inductors etc. and go active.
          I don’t know if it’s been said that they add anything desirable (at least I’ve never alluded to that), what I’ve been going on about would be geared towards which one is a lesser evil.......a more palatable alternative.
          And yes I’m going to definately go down the active path sooner or later.....just want to learn as much as possible in the passive realm.

          And if y’all are gonna start telling me coffee is coffee and beer is beer.......well there’s just no hope and I might as well go live under a bridge in a fridge box drinking Nattie light till I pass out then wake up listening to my handheld AM radio while slugging down Sanka.

          bob

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          • #65
            I've listened to cheap capacitors through crappy solder joints my whole life.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by djg View Post
              I've listened to cheap capacitors through crappy solder joints my whole life.
              Sounds like that should start with ‘My name is djg, and.......’

              lol

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              • #67
                Audiophiles Anonymous.

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                • #68
                  In most, if not all sighted testing involving our senses we are incredibly easily swayed. Price tags, colors, shapes, size - there is a reason the vast majority of advertising is blasted to our eyes in full color. Advertising agencies figured out long ago that pink boxes make pastry taste better, for example. Test after sighted test demonstrates stated preference follows pricetag on wine. We audio people are not exempt from sighted bias. Some of us have come to terms with it, some have not, and some are outright in denial that they are not special.

                  I think we can all agree that beer is not just beer, and coffee is not just coffee - and caps are not just caps. Solder is just solder, though.

                  Where it comes into question, where it becomes the point of contention, is when claims are made in the face of literally all testing. People routinely fail blind tests. Their discovered preferences may surprise them, but we generally cherish our beliefs above others' so it is no surprise that people making the claims are opposed to the scientific method.

                  Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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                  • #69



                    i used to race dirtbikes and customized to my own specs......down to ign curves, porting, suspension tuning etc. heres something that most would probably not believe but is true, carb jetting affects the suspension tuning......is it measureable? nope Does it happen? yep Are there pro tuners who say thats a load of crap? you bet .....but the ones who know its true are the racers that tune their own bikes.
                    nobody told me this was a thing....i figured it out for myself then found out later i wasn't alone.

                    just because something cannot be proven means it does not exist? i know alot of religeous folks that might be disappointed with that logic.

                    other than just taking someones word for it i suppose there is no way to really show someone what you hear, blind testing is not exactly conclusive either......alot of my realizations can only be heard after a long listening session/s and a/b'ing .

                    if it makes my findings anymore believable i do put in alot of hours testing.....back and forth verifying to myself then also a/b'ing for friends and family (asking which sounds better to you) without bias.

                    i suppose y'all may be right and i'm just nuts! lol

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                    • #70
                      There's a reason it's called the power of suggestion, like the water sommelier, if the people haven't formed an opinion of their own, they are forming one based on the impression of others, the wording, the appearance, before experiencing it themselves. Now if I were in the situation of the water sommeleier, I might agree with the sommeleir out of politeness, then when he walks away say "this all tastes like garden hose, where's the wine guy?" ;)

                      That said, I think a lot of the blind testing being completed is also flawed, short term tests designed to show that you can't hear a difference. I know from experience that it can take a week or 4 of listening to decide that something is consistently off in the sound and I decide to make a change. How many ABX tests span this sort of time frame?

                      Unfortunately the audio world is full of unsubstantiated claims, and conclusions made from coincidence rather than proof. Something like "I heard two completely different speakers in two different settings, one was active the other was passive, I preferred the passive one therefore passive sounds better". This sort of reasoning based on coincidence rather than evidence is why anti-vaxxers exist. I would say the same about decisions being made of a speaker driver based on someone's implementation of it. Something like "I heard the Scan-Speak YYY in such and such speaker, didn't like it, therefore the YYY isn't very good". I don't think this is the sort of reasoning behind speaker selection and design people should be making, but it happens all the time, and will continue long after this thread dies off. The worst is when these claims are made by people who have been DIYers for years, and back up their claims with "I've been doing this for years, therefore I know". Now I'm not saying that everyone needs to be a physicist or anything like that to make a claim, this is a hobby after all, and the technical details of "why" may be beyond the capabilities of many hobbyists, and maybe not that much fun either, but just keep in mind that opinions are just opinions, and be weary of coming to any definite conclusions based on limited knowledge and exposure.

                      "I just use off the shelf textbook filters designed for a resistor of 8 ohms with
                      exactly a Fc 3K for both drivers, anybody can do it." -Xmax

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                      • #71
                        Many years ago there were myriad claims about the improvement in sound one could get from their speakers with a Bybee passive filter installed in series with the speaker's terminals. Dennis Murphy tried it and reported in detail how good and in what ways his speakers sounded with that filter installed, then added they sounded exactly like that before he installed the filters! At DIY Iowa once when Wolf was demonstrating different capacitors in a speakers crossover, I did hear a very slight difference in sibilance between two caps, but I wouldn't claim one cap created better or more accurate sound than the other, just different.
                        Paul

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                          I did hear a very slight difference in sibilance between two caps, but I wouldn't claim one cap created better or more accurate sound than the other, just different.
                          Paul
                          i'll take that......i'm not saying one way is unlistenable compared to the other......just saying you can definately change the sound untill you prefer it.....or put it back if you don't.

                          i'm in a situation right now where i tried a different inductor.....didn't like it.....put it back the way it was and lost something. And it apparantly had absolutely nothing to do with solder!

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by kevintomb

                            Yes, but you are starting to seem a bit obtuse in your wording.

                            It is very easy to prove what one hears when one truly hears it!
                            In my mind, when blind testing is not conclusive, that usually means the claim is not conclusive.

                            The easy way would be to listen with and without the object in question in the circuit.
                            Anyone that claims to hear a big or easily heard change, would be able to easily identify it during an unsighted test.

                            If the difference is claimed to be tiny or miniscule perhaps one could not prove what they hear easily, but that small a change would fall under the ..."Maybe" I hear it.
                            ok......i buy into 'maybe' as long as the engineers concede that point. lol

                            edit. its a strong maybe though.....bordering on certainty......just inconclusive. i do hear the differences when i a/b whether its better or worse......i certainly don't want worse, by wishful thinking standards it should always be better! lol

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                            • #74


                              I wonder how some people tweak or fine tune there sound since most claim they cant hear the difference and or don't trust there own ears?....I guess they rely solely on measurements? SMDH LMAO

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                              • #75
                                SMDH.......nice!

                                learning is fun........smdh and ‘water sommelier’ all in one day!

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