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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dave Bullet View Post
    What I've gathered over the years:
    1. Crossover components in series with the drivers seem to be the focus for upgrades than those in parallel
    2. Lower frequency sections tend to opt for cheaper components. Either this is price driven (larger values) or we are less sensitive to variations in bass "quality"
    3. If you want to upgrade - series caps in the tweeter.... and less so but possibly midrange circuit are what people do
    4. for all parallel legs - higher resistance inductors (remember to subtract / allow for inductor DCR) and non-polar / bi-polar electrolytic caps are fine. Ideally your XO simulation software will allow you to measure power dissipation across the circuit so you can see if you have a load issue needing to parallel resistors etc...
    It's a serious mistake thinking that only series and not parallel components matter, if that were the case, then how would you obtain second and third and forth order crossover function? If a parallel component produces distortion, it still affects the entire circuit, because it is in the circuit. Duh!

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    • #17
      Hey!

      Quit being so vowelent!

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      • #18
        Looking at the Tarkus cab drawings. Add the top depth measurement to the bottom depth measurement. Divide by 2. That depth measurement gives you the exact volume of the sloped cab in a square cab. That's as far as I would go. I was good at geometry but too lazy for algebra. Jeez was that 10th or 11th grade?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by AEIOU View Post

          It's a serious mistake thinking that only series and not parallel components matter, if that were the case, then how would you obtain second and third and forth order crossover function? If a parallel component produces distortion, it still affects the entire circuit, because it is in the circuit. Duh!
          I didn't say they were irrelevant. If course they matter to provide all many of shaping. What I said is a generalisation on what people tend to focus more money on. I stand by that. People usually pony up for fancy caps in the tweeter circuit, before they buy that 220uF silver oil or whatever mundorf parallel cap in the woofer parallel leg.

          I did not comment on distortion. Let's assume one parallel component produces more distortion than another and this component loops back to the amplifier. Now... does that carry over to audible distortion through the driver? I dunno. I'd be interested in some expert advice.

          Then there is the matter of whether we are talking fractions of dB difference between the various caps... vs. value tolerances (bigger impact?) and inherent driver distortion (much much bigger impact)

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          • #20
            Hello again. Time marches on and in spite of various setbacks and delays I have finished the boxes. I now have several layers of primer with sanding in between to go before doing the same with my colour finish. In fact I have spent so much time on the project (and money) the wife is starting to ask if it really is worth it. I tend to avoid answering the question. I was just motivated toward building something that will sound good for my particular situation. Many of you have built these, or a closely related version and I was wondering................ What would you expect to pay for a commercial product of equal performance. Assuming my finish turns out looking professional I am hoping to have saved a decent amount of cash.

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            • #21
              Pick up an issue of Stereophile and thumb through the pages. Personally, I think the Tarkus resembles some of Wilson Audio's older offerings and, well, the sky is the limit as far as $ is concerned.
              Currently finishing up a similar build using FaitalPro and Dayton woofers combined with a Peerless tweeter.
              For me, getting a professional looking finish is the most difficult part.
              Anyhow, if you cannot win her over with logic, tell her it's an addiction more enjoyable than drugs.

              Click image for larger version

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              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

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              • #22
                The equivalent commercial offerings, finishing included, generally run about a 500% markup to include the cost of any R&D, overhead, and supplies costs. Don't look at the BOSE numbers, as they are in the 1000% markup area, and likely not worth it.

                For larger or more expensive builds, I know I've been surprised how much things would have cost me in total retail money. I happen to be frugal and shave whatever costs I can. Sales, coupons, second-hand purchases, bartering/trades, and an observant eye have likely saved me thousands of dollars in this hobby.

                Later,
                Wolf
                "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                *InDIYana event website*

                Photobucket pages:
                http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                  The equivalent commercial offerings, finishing included, generally run about a 500% markup to include the cost of any R&D, overhead, and supplies costs. Don't look at the BOSE numbers, as they are in the 1000% markup area, and likely not worth it.

                  For larger or more expensive builds, I know I've been surprised how much things would have cost me in total retail money. I happen to be frugal and shave whatever costs I can. Sales, coupons, second-hand purchases, bartering/trades, and an observant eye have likely saved me thousands of dollars in this hobby.

                  Later,
                  Wolf
                  Adding to what Ben mentions is the often volatile short-lived nature and niche market of 'high-end' audio, and of course there is the 'mine is bigger than yours' stroking of the ego.
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

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                  • #24
                    Still (fallacy or not), the OP asked WHAT XO components were "typically" upgraded, and Dave gave a VERY concise list ...

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                    • #25
                      The Nola Brio 2.1 system goes for $3500. It has less than $400 in components, mostly the subwoofer. Silver D made a clone of the satellites for very little, the Vigor.

                      Salk Sound sells a pair of Bagby Continuums for $1500 and up. My DIY pair should come in under $600, including veneer and solid cherry front and back, and prebuilt crossovers. And I'm splurging on those.

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                      • #26
                        Sorry if I have caused a bit of thread drift here. I only asked because I haven't bought any new audio equipment for decades and the prices I see advertised these days are more than I'd pay for a decent car.

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                        • djg
                          djg commented
                          Editing a comment
                          It's your thread.

                      • #27
                        I found I could not hear the difference between the PE parts and the uber cost boutique stuff some sites sell. Try not to use an electrolytic in the mid or tweeter as you might be able to hear the difference. PE poly caps, air core coils, and resistors are good enough for $100 tweeters.

                        Electrolytic caps have about a 10 year life span. I may put up with re-capping an amp, but would rather not do the speaker again. ( they dry out, leakage goes up, ESR goes up and DF to hell)

                        A bit if advice. Sounds like another plan based on calculations. They give you a starting point only! Make a prototype and measure in-place. You will find all the simulations are wrong. Not only in box alignment but in actual baffle issues. I use the simulations mostly as a decision point on what driver to select. I prefer sealed low Q ( .5 to .6 ) so for me, just make big, but that does not work for ported enclosures. Same with crossover simulations. A place to start.

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                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
                          Still (fallacy or not), the OP asked WHAT XO components were "typically" upgraded, and Dave gave a VERY concise list ...
                          Have to agree.
                          I have "Read" about all types of claims about caps, and audibility, and so on, but never found anyone willing to demonstrate how their less agreed upon ideas worked.

                          Not saying they do not, but a claim is far different than an actual demonstration of audibility.

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                          • #29
                            Originally posted by AEIOU View Post

                            It's a serious mistake thinking that only series and not parallel components matter, if that were the case, then how would you obtain second and third and forth order crossover function? If a parallel component produces distortion, it still affects the entire circuit, because it is in the circuit. Duh!
                            Been away a while. I didn't say parallel didn't matter. Of course parallel components affect the transfer function. I'm just commenting on where people throw upgrade money. I think the concept behind series having more impact than parallel is some belief that the series component feeds the driver signal, whereas the parallel creates a bypass.

                            Please re-read my comments and re-read yours. Then you may jump (quite a jump) to your conclusion.

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                            • #30
                              Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                              I found I could not hear the difference between the PE parts and the uber cost boutique stuff some sites sell. Try not to use an electrolytic in the mid or tweeter as you might be able to hear the difference. PE poly caps, air core coils, and resistors are good enough for $100 tweeters.

                              Electrolytic caps have about a 10 year life span. I may put up with re-capping an amp, but would rather not do the speaker again. ( they dry out, leakage goes up, ESR goes up and DF to hell)

                              A bit if advice. Sounds like another plan based on calculations. They give you a starting point only! Make a prototype and measure in-place. You will find all the simulations are wrong. Not only in box alignment but in actual baffle issues. I use the simulations mostly as a decision point on what driver to select. I prefer sealed low Q ( .5 to .6 ) so for me, just make big, but that does not work for ported enclosures. Same with crossover simulations. A place to start.


                              I just worked on an older speaker (early 80's) with the original caps.

                              Weirdly enough, they sounded perfect, even compared to the new daytons I used to A/B them against. Really crazy, but nearing 40 years!

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