Woofer question: One big versus several small?

[fpitas]

Yes, exactly.. The 8s I used (Peerless 830869) in a quad array have an Fs of 30Hz, and are in a box tuned to 28Hz. They respond smoothly up to the 800Hz crossover, too.

I'll add (since I can't edit anything !@#$%^&) that they respond smoothly up to the 800Hz crossover.

[fpitas]

The size of a woofer has no direct relationship with Fs.

Yes, exactly.. The 8s I used (Peerless 830869) in a quad array have an Fs of 30Hz, and are in a box tuned to 28Hz. They respond smoothly up to the 800Hz crossover, too.

[billfitzmaurice]

The size of a woofer has no direct relationship with Fs.

[AEIOU]

That's not actually the case. Since sensitivity goes up by 6dB/volt with each doubling of driver count the opposite can be true. But the no free lunch rule applies, the driver cost will usually be higher with multiple drivers, and that's why they don't own the marketplace. As for the lack of large driver 3 ways, that's the result of using 2 way mains with 1 way subs. It's still a 3 way system, contained in more than one box. Since that offers the option to place the low frequency sources and higher frequency sources where each works best, which is almost never within the same footprint, it's by and large a better way to go.

Yeah, even if four 6.5 inch woofers have the same surface area as a 12 inch woofer, the 12 inch woofer still reproduces half an octave or more of deep bass, since the fs of a 12 inch woofer is obviously lower and the 12 inch woofer was designed to move a lot of air.

[kevintomb]

I do believe that several smaller woofers obviously can equal one or two much larger woofers, just a matter of cone size and xmax.

But, I also believe that many smaller woofers, usually can not be as cost effective as one good much larger woofer also. Or, something must be compromised beyond just matching the cone sizes, to keep the price equal.

[billfitzmaurice]

My brother In-law (I am not a musician) just moved from an electric bass to a stand up and since he plays large venues he has been on a quest for an amp and speaker that doesn't not make his stand up sound electric. My first thought was a very large light cone with high efficiency so cone travel is minimized at relative volume levels

You don't need to use a lighter cone, ie., lower Mms, which usually results in higher Fs, although you could. What stand up needs is flat response to at least 10kHz, what it doesn't need is LF extension below 100Hz. That's characteristic of good self powered PA tops.

[tomzarbo]

How did that happen? Sorry.

[tomzarbo]

U

[djg]

Trollbot sweety hijacked the thread.

[fpitas]

I find it pretty sad that people are still caught up in this "fast vs slow bass" nonsense. I have read how people go out of their way to look for low Mms subwoofers, thinking that the lower mass will be "faster" and that 'faster sound" will be... better??? As if this is the only parameter that matters...

These folks don't seem to have a clue about the time-domain transient/impulse response, how it is related to the frequency response, and how it changes when the driver is band limited by a low pass crossover.

It will never die. It's easier to parrot stuff from the internet than to actually do math and engineering.

[Harvylogan]

Being both a speaker designer and bass player, electric and standup, I can say that there's no such thing as 'fast' or 'slow' bass. The main difference in electric versus acoustic is that the tone and timbre of electric comes primarily from the amp and speakers, that of acoustic from the instrument. The size of the body of the acoustic is simply too small to support anything approaching flat response to even the second harmonic, let alone the fundamental. This results in accentuation of the mids and highs compared to electric bass, and that's what those who don't actually know what's happening call 'fast' bass. Test side by side an acoustic and an electric standup bass, the latter in the form of an Ampeg (the instrument, not the amp), and an electric bass. The acoustic bass will sound thin in the lows, prominent in the mids. The Ampeg and electric will sound similar in the lows. The Ampeg will have a different midrange timbre, but a fretless electric will duplicate that.

Not to hijack the thread but I find this very interesting. My brother In-law (I am not a musician) just moved from an electric bass to a stand up and since he plays large venues he has been on a quest for an amp and speaker that doesn't not make his stand up sound electric. My first thought was a very large light cone with high efficiency so cone travel is minimized at relative volume levels but I really have no real understanding of what I am dealing with here as far as reproducing an accurate stand up from a speaker and amp.. I would think you would want to avoid as much bass boost as you can with the electronics. I could be wrong.

[AEIOU]

fast bass from yamaha.

fast bass boat - youtube

lol

[djg]

Fast bass from Yamaha.

Fast Bass Boat - YouTube

[charlielaub]

I find it pretty sad that people are still caught up in this "fast vs slow bass" nonsense. I have read how people go out of their way to look for low Mms subwoofers, thinking that the lower mass will be "faster" and that 'faster sound" will be... better??? As if this is the only parameter that matters...

These folks don't seem to have a clue about the time-domain transient/impulse response, how it is related to the frequency response, and how it changes when the driver is band limited by a low pass crossover.

[billfitzmaurice]

Slow bass of a bass guitar vs fast bass of a stand up bass is analogous to the slow bass of a long excursion woofer that achieves the same note via excursion vs the fast bass of a low excursion woofer that achieves the same note via size.

Being both a speaker designer and bass player, electric and standup, I can say that there's no such thing as 'fast' or 'slow' bass. The main difference in electric versus acoustic is that the tone and timbre of electric comes primarily from the amp and speakers, that of acoustic from the instrument. The size of the body of the acoustic is simply too small to support anything approaching flat response to even the second harmonic, let alone the fundamental. This results in accentuation of the mids and highs compared to electric bass, and that's what those who don't actually know what's happening call 'fast' bass. Test side by side an acoustic and an electric standup bass, the latter in the form of an Ampeg (the instrument, not the amp), and an electric bass. The acoustic bass will sound thin in the lows, prominent in the mids. The Ampeg and electric will sound similar in the lows. The Ampeg will have a different midrange timbre, but a fretless electric will duplicate that.