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What are your tips on bass in small rooms?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post

    Geddes was basing his position that there is no room gain on the premise that there was enough leakage to counter the pressurization, but as John K already stated, that’s very unlikely. It is really not that difficult measure the low frequency gain in a room, which usually begins below 40 Hz or so.

    It’s funny, in all my years in speaker design I have never once heard that the consensus was that there was no room gain. Never. I have heard Earl say it, but he was the only one. The funnier part is how easy it is to verify. There really should be no debate on this one.
    You lost track of the point and conflated separate issues, as though I'm discussing everything all at once with every person I answer. No wonder Toole and Geddes get frustrated with the internet.

    Scientific consensus is on transition frequencies in small rooms. I never said there was consensus on room gain. However, I will now say there's no scientific support for room gain. If you think it's easy to verify publish a paper. After you prove room gain you'll get to be cited as an expert on the subject of low frequency room gain.

    Anyway, here's what I'm wondering: if you spent years designing speakers, why didn't you just answer the OP question? You must be familiar with low frequency modal behavior in small rooms. You must be familiar with Harman's engineering solution. I'm brand new to DIY speakers and I know about these things.

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    • #62
      Peer review doesn't establish fact. It means experts in the field review research and make sure it lines up with good methodology. For example, if I say, "I've measured room gain in my house," reviewer number one would say, "Cool, now tell me about your controlled experiment." Reviewer number two would probably be more harsh. Peer review sets the minimum hurdles a paper needs to jump to get published in journals for wider consumption in the expert community. If the research is influential and consequential it gets cited.

      Also, you can improve on the process with replication studies. If you have an old paper from long ago and you wonder about the findings you can run a replication study. If you find out it was flawed you can change science.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
        Audio is audio. Cabin gain is more obvious in a car because the room in question is particularly small. Jeff B's explanation was spot on.

        Like others I've also come to the conclusion that there's no point in responding to any of your questions, since you don't actually want to learn anything, you just want to argue. Worse, to argue about that which you have no fundamental understanding of. Lesson learned on my part.
        Stick to your guns, Bill.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by a4eaudio View Post

          Well, now your changing the rules. Your previous post said "If your name isn't listed in the reference material of an audio textbook". A textbook is NOT peer reviewed research. If you have time to read a lot of scientific research, then that might be a more effective approach than asking a question on a DIY forum.

          The point being made by several people is that your approach seems misguided...you ask a question and now you are telling everyone what you think the answer should be and arguing with experts. Again, in post #55 you are trying to tell Bill to read something...Bill is trying to help you. He provided a link relevant to your thread. If you aren't sure you believe it, say why and ask a question. Bill did not ask any questions or start the thread, he didn't express any interest in reading a PPT about Geddes and in fact stated that he quit paying attention to him long ago.
          Are you sure they're experts? Maybe I'm helping them by directing them to research their egos caused them to ignore. The reason I started reading the source research is my superpower, I have the ability to quickly recognize BS.

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          • #65
            Hearts and minds.

            Comment


            • #66
              A lot of well respected and knowledgeable members of the audio community have offered sound advice, which, after all, is what you initially asked for. And hey, I am all in for a constructive debate, which this is not.

              You don't know what you don't know, and there in lies the problem.

              This is an excerpt from a peer reviewed journal pertaining to the Dunning-Kruger effect, also notice that it is cited properly in APA format, " ... low performers generally over-evaluate (both before and after examinations) while high-performers regularly underestimate their performance (or at least they are overestimating to a significantly lower extent). These findings highlight that less good skills and/or abilities are only a part of the low-achievers' handicap. Another serious problem is that they are unaware about these problems (this phenomenon is sometimes referred to as 'Dunning-Krueger effect') (Kun, Kovacs, & Boros, 2016).

              If you do more than scratch the surface and dig a little deeper, you should realize the level of knowledge, contributions, and impact the people responding to your questions have made and continue to make in this field.

              It is up to you to open your mind and learn.

              Reference

              Kun, A. I., Kovács, É. K., & Boros, J. (2016). A Comparison of Self-Assessment Tendencies of Full-Time and Part-Time University Students. Annals of the University of Oradea, Economic Science Series, 25(1), 538–547. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com/login.as...ite=ehost-live.


              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

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              • #67
                How long are you guys going to be Trolled ? Please, just stop posting.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by bradley.s View Post

                  Are you sure they're experts? Maybe I'm helping them by directing them to research their egos caused them to ignore. The reason I started reading the source research is my superpower, I have the ability to quickly recognize BS.
                  Well, the loudspeaker companies that hire me seem to think I am. John, Bill, and I have all provided you with explanations and the mathematical principles behind them. You should at least be open minded enough to pursue the facts, they are not hard to find. Download some AES papers. Download software the does room simulations. But don't just follow everything you hear because it comes from a famous name. Sometimes those names are more interested in marketing their products than they are with being balanced about the facts.
                  Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
                    A lot of well respected and knowledgeable members of the audio community have offered sound advice, which, after all, is what you initially asked for. And hey, I am all in for a constructive debate, which this is not.

                    You don't know what you don't know, and there in lies the problem.

                    This is an excerpt from a peer reviewed journal pertaining to the Dunning-Kruger effect, also notice that it is cited properly in APA format, " ... low performers generally over-evaluate (both before and after examinations) while high-performers regularly underestimate their performance (or at least they are overestimating to a significantly lower extent). These findings highlight that less good skills and/or abilities are only a part of the low-achievers' handicap. Another serious problem is that they are unaware about these problems (this phenomenon is sometimes referred to as 'Dunning-Krueger effect') (Kun, Kovacs, & Boros, 2016).

                    If you do more than scratch the surface and dig a little deeper, you should realize the level of knowledge, contributions, and impact the people responding to your questions have made and continue to make in this field.

                    It is up to you to open your mind and learn.

                    Reference

                    Kun, A. I., Kovács, É. K., & Boros, J. (2016). A Comparison of Self-Assessment Tendencies of Full-Time and Part-Time University Students. Annals of the University of Oradea, Economic Science Series, 25(1), 538–547. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com/login.as...ite=ehost-live.

                    Yes, the Dunning-Kruger Effect is in full force in audio these days.
                    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by craigk View Post
                      How long are you guys going to be Trolled ? Please, just stop posting.
                      Right. I believe I gave my last reply on the matter this afternoon.
                      Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Anyone remember Ridikas?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          OK, here's some software. It's called MSO, Multi-Sub Optimizer.

                          https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html

                          Thanks for all your help, guys. You've been great.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post

                            Yes, the Dunning-Kruger Effect is in full force in audio these days.
                            I'll bet you didn't know there's a flip side to Dunning-Kruger. Basically, it's guys who are so good at what they do that they underestimate their abilities.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by bradley.s View Post
                              I'll bet you didn't know there's a flip side to Dunning-Kruger. Basically, it's guys who are so good at what they do that they underestimate their abilities.
                              You mean exactly like Kornbread's quote of the Dunning-Kruger effect two posts above Jeff's?

                              Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
                              ...while high-performers regularly underestimate their performance...

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by bradley.s View Post

                                I'll bet you didn't know there's a flip side to Dunning-Kruger. Basically, it's guys who are so good at what they do that they underestimate their abilities.
                                That's part of the D-K effect and expressed on the curve
                                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

                                Comment

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