Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Crossover component quality: How do they affect sound?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by mcargill View Post
    If, as johnnyrichards says, red caps sound better, does it matter which kind of paint I use?

    At CSS DIY held at Meniscus last September, they demonstrated two different crossovers they offer with one of their high-end two-way kits, using a good a/b switcher. The cost of the upgraded crossover was, if I remember correctly, $600 more (for a pair) than the kit with the basic crossover. I think about half of the people in the the room thought they might possibly have heard a difference between the two crossovers, but only a slight, subtle difference. I was among those who heard no difference at all.

    --Meredith
    It's a $400 price difference but part of the price is in the fact we build the crossovers ourselves to make sure they can't be screwed up. We definitely don't want expensive upgrades out there with parts wired up wrong.

    I wasn't in the room when the testing was done but what I was told by Dan was the tracks that were used weren't the greatest for the demo and I will also say that the listening room at Meniscus isn't the best room to show off speakers. We also had issues getting the switching box to work correctly. All told, the test didn't go anywhere near what was planned. I'm hoping we can try again next year and do it in a more controlled and effective manner.

    My personal opinion - when listening at home to tracks I am very familiar with, I heard a difference and I like the upgraded parts better. However, not all more expensive parts sounded the same and some of them that we tested sounded worse than the cheap Dayton parts.
    -Kerry

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by dynamo View Post
      I think non-inductive resistors are pointless. The little bit of inductance is irrelevant in a crossover and even if it were enough to take 20k down a touch, that sounds like a benefit to me..
      I'm in total agreement. The need for non-inductive resistors is probably a necessity when dealing up in the MegaHertz region.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post

        It's a $400 price difference but part of the price is in the fact we build the crossovers ourselves to make sure they can't be screwed up. We definitely don't want expensive upgrades out there with parts wired up wrong.

        I wasn't in the room when the testing was done but what I was told by Dan was the tracks that were used weren't the greatest for the demo and I will also say that the listening room at Meniscus isn't the best room to show off speakers. We also had issues getting the switching box to work correctly. All told, the test didn't go anywhere near what was planned. I'm hoping we can try again next year and do it in a more controlled and effective manner.

        My personal opinion - when listening at home to tracks I am very familiar with, I heard a difference and I like the upgraded parts better. However, not all more expensive parts sounded the same and some of them that we tested sounded worse than the cheap Dayton parts.
        You say that you liked the sound better. What you did not say is,,,,, would you pony up the cash.

        So, would ya?

        Have Fun! Mark.

        Comment


        • #34
          Cost v value is a factor in all kinds of purchases, but there must come a point where - unless you have large amounts of money - a product really isn't worth it. For example, I'm happy with good quality A$20 poly capacitors I've used in my DIY speakers.

          For A$170 each, or even a lot more than that, I could have bought reportedly better performing and finer tolerance caps. Am I going to try it just to find out if I can hear the difference? No way.

          For a typical two way crossover, the extra cost would go through the ceiling, say, $80 in good caps compared with almost $700 for the 'better' ones. Would I assemble a standard crossover and one with the better caps to do an A/B comparison? No way: if I couldn't hear a difference, I would have wasted the money and if I could, I would have to ask 'does it sound that much better'?

          Instead of spending the $ that way, I could buy higher quality drivers, build a different project and more easily hear an improvement in sound.

          Geoff

          Comment


          • #35
            I think we have all seen a few audio forums, where members replace retail speaker caps with high priced botique caps and claim to hear HUGE HUGE changes for the better and then argue with anyone trying to be more realistic about it.

            I see a lot of Post purchase Justification going on in some forums. (Not this one...obviously)

            Comment


            • #36
              What I would like to see would be a real objective comparison of caps. Real measurements and then the measurements detuned to approximate human hearing. It could probably be done either measuring with a scope/spectrum analyzer or even just a mic. IMO, I think a lot of the perceived differences in how caps sound are due to variations in the actual value of the caps and the ESR. A little bit of variation in both can certainly move a crossover point and color the sound "brighter or duller".

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by devnull View Post
                What I would like to see would be a real objective comparison of caps. Real measurements and then the measurements detuned to approximate human hearing. It could probably be done either measuring with a scope/spectrum analyzer or even just a mic. IMO, I think a lot of the perceived differences in how caps sound are due to variations in the actual value of the caps and the ESR. A little bit of variation in both can certainly move a crossover point and color the sound "brighter or duller".
                You have ears, why not try some different caps and just listen.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by craigk View Post

                  You have ears, why not try some different caps and just listen.
                  Because that's a subjective opinion vs having real quantifiable data to make design and purchasing decisions.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I'll posit that crossover components are very unlikely to add anything good to the sound. At some price point it makes more sense to just go fully active.
                    Francis

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by devnull View Post

                      Because that's a subjective opinion vs having real quantifiable data to make design and purchasing decisions.
                      If you haven't figured it out yet, music is subject. I can't think of a data set that I enjoy listening to. That is why every company that produces high end speakers voice them. If you use data only you will never design a great soundind speaker.
                      craigk

                      " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by fpitas View Post
                        I'll posit that crossover components are very unlikely to add anything good to the sound. At some price point it makes more sense to just go fully active.
                        This is another nonsensical statement. I have yet to hear an active speaker that I like tho mids and highs. The bass section, active is the way to go. The rest, well you see how many active systems are on the market. The studio monitors are usually passive with active to eq. Studio monitors are active more for ease of use. When I see half the consumer market active I will say maybe they have figured something out, until then it is still passive. A good sounding speaker is much more than flat lines on a computer monitor. This reminds me of when Jeff B. Started posting about phase. Every thing pn this forum was phase this and phase that. 90 % of what was being posted was totally wrong. Now that phase isn't the fad, you hardly see it mentioned, and speakers are being built and still sound fine. Active, as it is now, is not impressive. Give it a few years and it might be. Time will tell.
                        craigk

                        " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          JBL discovered that trusting hearing and not relying on blind data resulted in poorer sounding speakers.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Sorry if this stirs the pot but thought it relevant to the discussion

                            http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
                            Carbon13

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by philthien View Post
                              JBL discovered that trusting hearing and not relying on blind data resulted in poorer sounding speakers.
                              But lets be real, the majority of JBL speakers are poorer sounding to start with. They have a few good sounding, but not great. JBL, like Bose, know how to market.
                              craigk

                              " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by philthien View Post
                                JBL discovered that trusting hearing and not relying on blind data resulted in poorer sounding speakers.
                                Harman's data to that end is pretty hard to dispute.
                                Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X