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  • Talk some sense into me.

    So im trying to chase a sound and ive wasted a lot of money doing so. Maybe not as much as others but a good deal in my opinion. I have 10 RS225-4 sitting around collecting dust along with 5 RST28F, 5 Peerless SDS 6.5" paper woofers and 5 XT tweeters.

    I wanted to recycle the woofers, either the Daytons or the Peerless, and I have been trying to implement a cost effective horn loaded speaker using one of them - and to make matters worse, I can go buy Klipsch R-15M for $159 a PAIR, OR R-41M for $157 a PAIR. Yeah thats cheap!

    I have been modeling like a nut job, even trying"Econowave Mini- with the 220TI and replacing LF with the RS225-4 pictured below. Please talk some sens into me...should I give up chasing anything withe these drivers? Should i just suck it up and buy the Klipsch? I am attempting to buy/rebuild 7 speakers for our family room theater. The'll be paired with four RSS390HF seald subs so im not worried about bass.

    The Xo for the 220 is exactly as the Econowave so "proven" I just dropped in my Daytons for low end and tweaked to not look like poo poo
    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    I'm not a fan of titanium diaphragm drivers like the 220Ti. I prefer beryllium, aluminum or plastic in that order. It does depend on what you're going for. To me, titanium makes everything sound like rock and roll. Sort of a weird metallic undertone. Obviously, some people like that.

    On the other hand, I don't know of any insoluble problem with the RS225-4 drivers.

    My personal opinion on horn speakers is that "cost effective horn loaded speakers" is a sonic disaster waiting to happen. But once again, only you know what you like.
    Last edited by fpitas; 02-18-2020, 10:23 AM.
    Francis

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    • #3
      Ive never had a titanium tweeter, only soft domes and one aluminum. Im trying to get a speaker I can get the most out of for music and movies. I listen to a lot of instrumental, opera jazz etc and im tired of dead sound.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
        Ive never had a titanium tweeter, only soft domes and one aluminum. Im trying to get a speaker I can get the most out of for music and movies. I listen to a lot of instrumental, opera jazz etc and im tired of dead sound.
        Well, I'll admit I'm very picky about what I listen to. But titanium was originally meant for pro sound use, where longevity and durability are the important features. Drunks at 3AM won't notice a tiny amount of metallic sound in the music
        Francis

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        • #5
          What's the issue? Don't you like what you've got?
          (Why use a (high SPL) horn w/a low sens. woofer, so you can pad the H-E-double-hockeysticks out of it? I must admit I don't get it.)
          If you used a quad of the 225s, you'd gain +6dB in sens. on the woofer section.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
            What's the issue? Don't you like what you've got?
            (Why use a (high SPL) horn w/a low sens. woofer, so you can pad the H-E-double-hockeysticks out of it? I must admit I don't get it.)
            If you used a quad of the 225s, you'd gain +6dB in sens. on the woofer section.
            Yes i know if i use dual woofers i get more sensitivity, theres nothing off about this xover for the tweeter. As mentioned its the same one used in the Econwaver Mini-I just changed out the Beta8A for my RS225s. THere was no extra padding added onto the proven design.

            And no I dont like what i've got. Thats why im trying to salvage what I do have. Adding a second woofer gains DB but also have to increase cab size which im not willing to do. My post clearly says im trying to salvage what I have if possible. You can buy 8 Klipsch R41M or R-15M $550-$600. So im trying to match that price and salvage what I do have and add CD- if its not possible then im buying those speakers as its not worth the headache. DIY speakers are becoming insanely expensive to build

            Also I guess i should clarify im building 7 speakers for our theater- at a max of 1 cuft

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
              Yes i know if i use dual woofers i get more sensitivity, theres nothing off about this xover for the tweeter. As mentioned its the same one used in the Econwaver Mini-I just changed out the Beta8A for my RS225s. THere was no extra padding added onto the proven design.
              The original woofer is 4db more sensitive than the RS225 so you can't just drop it in. You would have to reduce ("pad") the tweeter another 4db which kind of defeats the purpose of the high sensitivity tweeter as Chris was mentioning.

              Which SDS woofers and XT tweeters do you have? There are multiple versions on the PE site. Given you are going to have 4 subwoofers you could go sealed in 1 cf or less with the SDS or RS225's with an F3 around 60-80 Hz and crossover to the subs.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by a4eaudio View Post

                The original woofer is 4db more sensitive than the RS225 so you can't just drop it in. You would have to reduce ("pad") the tweeter another 4db which kind of defeats the purpose of the high sensitivity tweeter as Chris was mentioning.

                Which SDS woofers and XT tweeters do you have? There are multiple versions on the PE site. Given you are going to have 4 subwoofers you could go sealed in 1 cf or less with the SDS or RS225's with an F3 around 60-80 Hz and crossover to the subs.
                SDS-160F25PR01-08 & XT25SC90-04. Im trying to salvage and use a CD/horn. I feel thats what im missing in my system. Last speaker I heard that didnt keave me wanting more was a Volt- from DIYSG. But even them the cheapest the 6 would be $1000 for 7 speakers :(. Im trying to salvage what i have and do something similar but just adding XO and CD to existing woofers i have on hand.

                As for dropping in the rs225- I didnt add anything additional to the xo here is original xo. Im open to suggestions- sorry if i seem like a A-hole. Im just frustrated lol
                Attached Files

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                • #9
                  I think you'll get your best SQ/$ ratio by avoiding horns. And I own horns. Wouldn't have anything else, but doing them right is not cheap.
                  Francis

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                  • #10
                    Buy the Klipsches, they will work with your subs. Why? Because your assortment of drivers does not work together.

                    Your tweeters cannot go low enough loud enough .
                    Your mids cannot reach your tweeters without awkward off-axis behavior(bad for HT).
                    Your woofers need more room than you would like(and it will require four per speaker to get more sensitivity, unless you are flush with 2-ohm capable amps).

                    All that said, these are good drivers, just apparently not for you.
                    Sell them or play around with them, just not for this purpose.

                    And watch/listen to something funny when you get it set up,
                    it's supposed to be fun.

                    best, David

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                    • #11
                      Actually, the RS225-4 looks to be more like -7dB quieter than the Beta8 IN ITS PASSBAND.
                      That means dropping it into that Econowave design leaves your horn tweeter +7dB TOO HOT.

                      While I won't say that your 225 can't be used w/that horn, I CAN give you some advice on changes to your HP XO (for the horn) that will drop its output by another -7dB while maintaining some semblance of the same transfer function.

                      If you want to give it a try (for fun, and a learning moment), here's what I'd do (to the HP filter):
                      Drop C1 (drastically) from 7.5uF down to 1.5uF.
                      Up the shunt coil (to gnd) from a 0.40mH to a 1.5mH (can prob'ly use a high DCR coil here, like maybe a #18 air).
                      Remove the 16n(ohm) shunt resistor (R3).
                      Drop C3 (a bit) from 1.5uF down to just 1.0uF.
                      KEEP R1 (40n bypass resistor).
                      Drop R2 (shunt resistor) from 4n down to 3n.

                      Essentially we're cutting the horn tweeter down by about -21dB (+/-3dB).

                      Your 0.33uF (tiny) "tank" cap across the woofer coil looks to be doing a good job.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
                        Actually, the RS225-4 looks to be more like -7dB quieter than the Beta8 IN ITS PASSBAND.
                        That means dropping it into that Econowave design leaves your horn tweeter +7dB TOO HOT.

                        While I won't say that your 225 can't be used w/that horn, I CAN give you some advice on changes to your HP XO (for the horn) that will drop its output by another -7dB while maintaining some semblance of the same transfer function.

                        If you want to give it a try (for fun, and a learning moment), here's what I'd do (to the HP filter):
                        Drop C1 (drastically) from 7.5uF down to 1.5uF.
                        Up the shunt coil (to gnd) from a 0.40mH to a 1.5mH (can prob'ly use a high DCR coil here, like maybe a #18 air).
                        Remove the 16n(ohm) shunt resistor (R3).
                        Drop C3 (a bit) from 1.5uF down to just 1.0uF.
                        KEEP R1 (40n bypass resistor).
                        Drop R2 (shunt resistor) from 4n down to 3n.

                        Essentially we're cutting the horn tweeter down by about -21dB (+/-3dB).

                        Your 0.33uF (tiny) "tank" cap across the woofer coil looks to be doing a good job.


                        Huh, bad a$$ idea, ill have to give it a shot. Now only if i had gotten the 8ohm ones ugh these woofers are a pin in my tush. Anyway- thanks for the tips i appreciate it. Tiny Tank is so cute on the woofer... lol

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                        • #13
                          https://youtu.be/GG2RqnFWvGI
                          Remy, Ryan built a very similar cd/SEOS 2 way with the RS225-4. He was very happy happy with them. Good luck with your project. I love cd horn setups. Glenn.

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                          • #14
                            Go to DIYSoundgroup and order the SEOS-8 waveguide. It was made to fit over the RS28 tweeter and may also fit the RST. That guide will let you easily pair it with the RS225, and cross at 1KHz.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by davidB View Post
                              Buy the Klipsches, they will work with your subs. Why? Because your assortment of drivers does not work together.

                              Your tweeters cannot go low enough loud enough .
                              Your mids cannot reach your tweeters without awkward off-axis behavior(bad for HT).
                              Your woofers need more room than you would like(and it will require four per speaker to get more sensitivity, unless you are flush with 2-ohm capable amps).

                              All that said, these are good drivers, just apparently not for you.
                              Sell them or play around with them, just not for this purpose.

                              And watch/listen to something funny when you get it set up,
                              it's supposed to be fun.

                              best, David
                              What he Said ^

                              The RS225's aluminum cone is not conducive to cross much higher than 1200 Hz. Not a horn expert but the spec.;'s on the 220TI say that's below the recommend range.

                              Also, your RS-225-4s are 4 ohm. So the only real option with two is in series for an nominal 8 ohm speaker. And you will not gain any sensitivity in a series configuration. You will be able to handle double the power, and hence more spl.

                              Here's an XO for a RS225 and an RS28F tweeter crossed about 1.5 KHz - fourth order to make it work. Your horn could work as it will needed to be significantly padded down to match the output of the RS225s. So it shouldn't stressed at high output.

                              The RS225 is a wonderful woofer down low. But it needs a steep roll-off to tame the aluminum cone's breakup above 2 KHz. And you'll need a considerable size box to vent two 2.5+ ft3.

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