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Recommended Mid/Tweeter for this 10" driver

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  • #16
    After reading all of this, I have but one question. Do the JVC ribbons actually make noise/sound? Can you measure an impedance on them? What I'm seeing looks like the magnet with no ribbon element from the front, and I bet they don't work at all. You may have been had in your trade, and received damaged units.

    I'm with Tom on the amp filters, use them with the sub and a 2-way and make it easier on yourself.
    Wolf
    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

    *InDIYana event website*

    Photobucket pages:
    http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Wolf View Post
      After reading all of this, I have but one question. Do the JVC ribbons actually make noise/sound? Can you measure an impedance on them? What I'm seeing looks like the magnet with no ribbon element from the front, and I bet they don't work at all. You may have been had in your trade, and received damaged units.

      I'm with Tom on the amp filters, use them with the sub and a 2-way and make it easier on yourself.
      Wolf
      Wolf, I dont want to take your money, when I built the other 3-way in 2017 (not the topic of this thread), the jvc ribbons were brand new in box with spec sheet and unused caps, I have had them for 20+ years in the box. When testing them, I could hear up to 17,100Hz (I am 50+), my daughter could hear up to 19,400Hz, my cat heard up to 24,600Hz, but I think the Denon home 5.1 receiver was the limiting factor in driving freq, so, yes, they work. I am mostly into 70/80/90 rock and usually have the EQ in the standard rock/style happy face setting (boosting low/highs), these tweeters did not need any boosting for my taste, maybe because there are more efficient than the mids/woofer, they do have a 20oz magnet circuit, thats pretty healthy for tweeters. I mentioned these were real cheap speakers before the rebuild, not even mdf, the jvc ribbons have more magnet circuit that the 10" driver had. For the $100 rebuild cost, I am very happy with them, even turned up, my Denon avr-3801 105W/ch receiver is the limiting factor at the moment, If I change anything, its the $17/pr mids that are currently in there.

      I came across this website http://www.roomeqwizard.com/index.html, looks interesting, has a ton of features and is free, any other ones that are free and better for testing? if you dont want to click that link, here is a summery of what the program has:
      "REW is free room acoustics analysis software for measuring and analysing room and loudspeaker responses. The audio measurement and analysis features of REW help you optimise the acoustics of your listening room, studio or home theater and find the best locations for your speakers, subwoofers and listening position. It includes tools for generating audio test signals; measuring SPL and impedance; measuring frequency and impulse responses; measuring distortion; generating phase, group delay and spectral decay plots, waterfalls, spectrograms and energy-time curves; generating real time analyser (RTA) plots; calculating reverberation times; calculating Thiele-Small parameters; determining the frequencies and decay times of modal resonances; displaying equaliser responses and automatically adjusting the settings of parametric equalisers to counter the effects of room modes and adjust responses to match a target curve."
      Attached Files

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      • #18
        I been reading a few threads here, one being the GRS budget build. Comparing the 12" grs to the 12" pyle I used, the grs has a lower freq of 30Hz vers 36Hz, I would be curious how accrate that is (specially looking at EFF numbers), but lets give this point to GRS.

        I think all other points go to the Pyle, here is why I think that.
        200W vs 100Wrms
        60oz magnet vs ~20oz (guessing because they dont post this info), but 9.84lbs vs 5.55lbs sums it up
        EFF 90 vs 84
        Pyle is less cost at $20 shipped, GRS is $20 plus shipping
        Nicer binding posts on the pyle.

        theoretically the pyle would have much higher spl for less cost, both amazing value and it's good to have options.
        https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-PYLE-PP...item1c69323396 or https://www.parts-express.com/pyle-p...eaker--292-216
        https://www.parts-express.com/grs-12...oofer--292-422

        Click image for larger version

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        • #19
          At the expense of bass extension and box size.
          Wolf
          "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
          "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
          "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
          "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

          *InDIYana event website*

          Photobucket pages:
          http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

          My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Wolf View Post
            At the expense of bass extension and box size.
            Wolf
            So using the higher 36hz pyle would be "more expense" in box size, this seems counter-intuitive?
            GRS vented enclosure = 31 sq/ft
            Pyle vented enclosure = 12 sq/ft
            tia

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            • #21
              Wow, that woofer with the silver basket has the smallest magnet structure that I've ever seen on a woofer that size...
              Brian Steele
              www.diysubwoofers.org

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              • #22
                Yep, was hilarious the first time I saw it. Did I mention rubbish? 😊

                Comment


                • #23
                  If you are basing your box volumes (ft^3 rather than ft^2), on the vented numbers posted from a quick sim in the product pages, then you are not doing your homework. These pre-sim alignments I really don't look at much and delve into my own modeling. But- the Vas of the Pyle is 4.52ft^3, while the GRS is 3.36ft^3. Generally this means the GRS will not need as large of a box. Both drivers should likely be run sealed due to the Qts of them, and the GRS will reach 13 Hz lower in a volume HALF THE SIZE of the Pyle driver's box trying to get there too. I really don't think anyone will actually build 31ft^3 or even 12ft^3 boxes for either of these 12" woofers. If the driver was a 21", then that might be a different story for the 12ft^3 volume.

                  The initial comment I made was on the basis of what kind of drivers the GRS and Pyle are. The GRS is a conventional higher-Qts woofer, and the Pyle is a mildly high Qts Prosound woofer. Sure, the Pyle will get louder, but at the expense of a larger box, and higher F3 than the GRS will likely have in a much smaller enclosure.
                  This is Hoffman's Iron Law:
                  You have options for; 1- small boxes, 2- higher sensitivity, and 3- deep bass F3 for lower extension. Pick 2- you can't have the 3rd.

                  So, applied to the type of drivers of interest, you can see what my conclusions came from.

                  Later,
                  Wolf
                  "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                  "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                  "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                  "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                  *InDIYana event website*

                  Photobucket pages:
                  http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                  My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Awesome Wolf, thanks for the detailed explanation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      It looks like the wattage handling they both claim might be somewhat meaningless when used as subs/woofers because their low Xmax.
                      The GRS will pass Xmax once you push them with deep-ish bass beyond 5-10watts while the Pyle's larger Xmax should let it handle around 15-25watts before the bass starts to get flubby and less clean.

                      I think it should be possible to get cleaner and deeper bass for a similar $20-30 and likely from a speaker that doesn't need a 112+liter enclosure to reach low. In 4ft/112L boxes these GRS and Pyle drivers are only reaching about 40-45hz F3...
                      This is something a pair of 4inch $12 TCP115-8's could do in a 0.3ft cu box. A smaller 4-5inch woofer can also let you cross it to a tweeter if you want to save money by skipping a dedicated midwoofer if you're aiming for something super-budget.

                      None of this matters if you already have a sub on hand that you're planning to use, but I probably wouldn't suggest either of those Pyle or GRS woofers as a sub or 3way bottom.
                      Already having a box you're planning to use also limits your woofer choices (assuming modifying the front baffle isn't really an option), but I think there are probably better options within those size constraints...or even more if you ARE able to modify the baffle for a different size.


                      For a little extra reference, I'm not saying these can't make you happy or they can't get "loud enough" and "deep enough". I made some speakers that don't have a ton of Xmax headroom beyond 5-15watts and they don't reach down below 45hz well, but they still get low enough for music to sound nice and they're more than loud enough to damage my hearing. The difference is that they're only 1/4ft cu and all of their speakers+XO parts cost less than those Pyle PPA12 woofers.
                      So I guess I'm saying if you want to go for something affordable, you can do it just as well with something much smaller and cheaper while getting just as low and just as loud. But if you want to reuse some boxes (and maybe some of their drivers) for something larger, I think you might as well take advantage of the extra size to get something that really thumps down low and can do it loud+clean even if it costs an extra $10-20.



                      EDIT: whoops, looking at the first post it appears this is pretty far from the original topic where you're using an existing box with a working woofer that isn't either of these...just searching for a good midwoofer and tweeter that doesn't cost too much. Sorry to get so far off-topic.
                      Last edited by LOUT; 06-11-2020, 12:11 AM.
                      My first 2way build

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                      • #26
                        @ LOUT, thanks and interesting comments, I have started to search more on the different abbreviations used for speaker spec's.

                        Your comment
                        This is something a pair of 4inch $12 TCP115-8's could do in a 0.3ft cu box.
                        , I would love to see this sometime.
                        The difference is that they're only 1/4ft cu and all of their speakers+XO parts cost less than those Pyle PPA12 woofers.
                        Under $20 is impressive, any links to the components/build?
                        TIA

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by --Oz-- View Post
                          @ LOUT, thanks and interesting comments, I have started to search more on the different abbreviations used for speaker spec's.
                          Your comment , I would love to see this sometime.
                          Under $20 is impressive, any links to the components/build?
                          TIA
                          The Xmax (if you haven't already found/read it) is how far forward and backward a speaker can move while staying nicely guided by the magnet and coil...basically it's where the speaker moves back and forth in a guided straight path. You can usually push farther/louder at least a little without damaging anything, but it'll be moving past the "guide" so the speaker might "wiggle" a little or generally move non-linearly which will make it distort the sound...usually resulting in sloppier bass.
                          Some speakers will also list an XMECH spec. This is the "mech"anical limit how far the speaker can move forward/backward before crashing into something or popping out of the gap...which has a fair chance to quickly damage the voicecoil and leave your speaker making a scraping noise.

                          F3 is the point where bass is only -3db quiter than the loudest frequencies from the speaker. Like how F6 is lower bass where it's gotten -6db quiter than the loudest point, and F10 is -10db. Often the -3db point is mentioned because a difference of only +/-3db is pretty small and difficult to notice, so you can count on having nicely hearable bass compared to the rest of the speaker's output at whatever point is only -3db quiter than the rest of the speaker/frequencies.

                          The earlier link to the Pyle PPA12 is closer to $40/each right now compared to the $20 from years ago while PE sells them for ~$35/each.
                          The little 2ways I have (in the link below my posts) use the ~$13 PC105-4 midwoofer, ~$8 TD20 tweeter and originally a $3-$4 DIY crossover (now a little over $6 for a better one)...so about $27/each. They're small and cheap and efficient enough to get loud with very little power, BUT they don't get crazy loud+clean if you push them with a big amp because the little woofers run out of Xmax beyond 5-15watts....earlier the deeper the music's loud bass is.
                          I love them (with inevitable bias) because I made them and they've been a lot of fun, BUT there are definitely louder and overall better designs out there...plenty of them. These mainly have the advantages of being extra cheap and surprisingly loud when battery-powered despite their modest size.

                          If you have more watts to push (a good 40-80watts of clean power), a pair of TCP115 or a single ~$35 DS175-8 in a small 0.3ft-0.4ft cu box should still be pretty cheap and have more headroom than the PC105-4 by a decent ways. A larger 8inch SD215-88 or DS215-8 for a 1-1.5ft box can reach a little louder and deeper around $30-40. If you're looking for something around 2-3ft cu that's deeper and louder and ~$40 isn't too bad, you might look at the DC300-8. I believe I've seen all of these paired directly with tweeters for seriously bassy 2ways on a budget.
                          I'm sure there are several other good options too, but I mostly stick to the Dayton brand drivers because they're extra convenient to model/SIM with and they tend to be pretty accurate with their specs rather than exaggerating them like some of the super-budget models. If Pyle specs its woofers anything like they do their electronics and pro-audio gear, I'd trust their specs about as much as I'd trust a scary clown in a drain.
                          There are many folks here with a boatload of experience who can point out several other brands that are decently affordable and trustworthy. I've only started to mess with DIY speakers, so I'm a novice at most of this.
                          My first 2way build

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                          • #28
                            Thanks LOUT, good information, thanks for sharing.

                            I got a mic that came with a 7.1 receiver and started playing with REW, it's sure got a learning curve.
                            Is REW the recommended free speaker analyzer or?

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