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  • #16
    And this:

    Although upstairs still has an IB setup, it was finished many years ago and I'm not current on what's out there. I always like a bargain vs mega$ drivers, not that they are necessarily just as good, because a lot of times they may or may not be, it's because I can only afford the cheap beer.
    This might help choose the driver http://www.ibsubwoofers.com/
    And here is the Cult https://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/
    Should find plenty of interesting reading there.

    Apparently Adire Audio is still in business (cannot link to competitor).
    Last edited by Kornbread; 07-31-2020, 08:01 PM.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

    Comment


    • #17
      And this:

      But don't get hung up on specs.
      qts really isn't as big of an issue as specs might lead one to believe, neither is fs as long as it is reasonable. Generally a sub will play well below it's fs, and remember, if for no other reason than the issue of location 'where do I stuff all these monsters', dsp or eq'ing is, IMO, a necessity. Displacement is the biggie, which usually requires multiple drivers and power.
      12 Shivas Dancing https://web.archive.org/web/20151002...-12Shiva1.html

      Fore reference, the Carver ALs are nearly 6' in height. The space the subs occupy is approx. 900ft³ minus the hvac system.
      Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_1607.JPG Views:	126 Size:	808.1 KB ID:	1445470 Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_1608.JPG Views:	110 Size:	808.9 KB ID:	1445471



      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

        ... IB requires a stiffer suspension Fortunately some of the drivers for ported enclosures are stiff enough. Fs needs to be below a filtered HP. When selecting, do the math.

        ... Guess you have never put on a movie with big effects and taken a walk down the street. Low frequencies travel. I could hear car subs 4 or 5 blocks away INSIDE my house.

        ... Chris, 4 15's and you are worried about X-max? I bet they don't move more than a couple mm without bursting your eardrums! Maybe you are concerned about infrasonics. An IB should always have a steep HP electronic filter on it. I have heard the "effortless" comment from IB owners. I have only heard two, and both I could "hear the subs" which means they were way out of balance. You should never hear a sub, just the music/effects. If I can point to a sub, it has a serious crossover failure. Lesson is I have not heard a properly done IB system.

        ... I can eq a sealed box below fs but an IB needs to be used above only.
        I'm no expert, but having built two and currently using an IB arrangement for at least two decades, I will disagree with some statements. My first system was eq'd using a burned cd of test tones, RadioShack spl meter, correction values for the spl meter, pen/paper/calculator, and a behringer feedback destroyer.

        1) Stiffer suspension may be more suitable for an IB arrangement but not a requirement. The first rule applies and this is that there is no replacement for displacement whether this comes from sd or xmax.
        2) Agree 100%. I had to eliminate the IB system from the shop's home theatre because a new neighbor moved their trailer in rather close to the shop. You could hear the tin on their trailer rattling when the shop ht system was turned up.
        3) Having 4 15" ib385 in the shop, well yea, they could make the air feel like jello, but my hearing is fine. Although I have lost some hearing since my 20's, annual hearing tests put me considerably above my age group. In that system, an ep2500 was enough to drive the quad to their 14+mm. xmax. The same amp will not drive an IB arrangement of two Stereo Integrity 18" to their xmax but believe me, they move waaaay more than a couple mm. I will agree this level of sound pressure may damage anyone's hearing. With that stated, how many people have have you ever seen wearing hearing protection at a db drag race? They reach crazy outrageous spl levels. Why?
        Agree; an IB can have an effortless sound to it, but, I'll admit it, I'm a basshead and when listening to certain types of music, I like to push the bass till the house shakes. This tends to not blend so well with the main speakers, which themselves are no slouch in the bottom registers, so for regular listening the ib's are generally not employed.
        4) Sorry, but this is wrong. A sub in IB arrangement can play well below fs. Remember, dsp/eq is pretty much a necessity with IB. In the measured freq. response of the earlier linked 12 Shivas Dancing, F3 is ~15hz, F6~12hz. which is considerably below the ~22hz fs of the Adire Shiva. By the way, the author measure output at ~23db down at 5hz.with, unless I missed, no mention of eq. IMO, something like a minidsp should be considered an essential part of an IB system.
        Last edited by Kornbread; 08-01-2020, 07:50 PM.
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

        Comment


        • #19
          I like the way this guy did it.

          Click image for larger version

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          • #20
            With the push pull slot loaded IB the drivers don't exert that much. If I get those moving 1/4" the hair will vibrate on your arms. The room pressurizes in such a way a draft can be felt. I call it the "bass winds". This isn't the tactical feel you get from "punch" its a whole different experience I've heard no one else describe. I don't even think the producers know it's happening. Here's an in room response, both speakers driven at the listening position Crossed at 100hz.Click image for larger version

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            • #21
              Here's a JBL MX515 crossed to the subs at 80hz. The dip at 65hz is due to the subs being behind the mains. A delay would be needed to fix that. Note the distortion.Click image for larger version

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              • #22
                Originally posted by scholl View Post
                With the push pull slot loaded IB the drivers don't exert that much. If I get those moving 1/4" the hair will vibrate on your arms. The room pressurizes in such a way a draft can be felt. I call it the "bass winds". This isn't the tactical feel you get from "punch" its a whole different experience I've heard no one else describe. I don't even think the producers know it's happening. Here's an in room response, both speakers driven at the listening position Crossed at 100hz.Click image for larger version

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                You have a write up or source of information for the push/pull?
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                Comment


                • scholl
                  scholl commented
                  Editing a comment
                  There's random threads about PPSL on line in other forums. With this design building the manifold is about making the dimensions so that it's wid enough so the inward facing woofer's cone doesn't hit the outward facing woofers magnet.. The height has to fit the woofer diameter of course. and any kind of mounting has to fit into the wall. So, teh design is about woofer size and mounting rather than designing for the woofer's parameters. Air leaks are just as harmful so the manifold has to be well sealed. If the woofers are matched there's very little vibration. Mounting one woofer in a wall baffle will have huge distortion from the wall shaking.

              • #23
                Having a quad of woofers mounted in a cube, opening into the room from between studs, didn't present much of a problem other than some stuff falling off shelves. Having a pair of 18s' mounted with both facing outwards is having detrimental effects on the house's sheetrock walls. I need to look into this type of mounting. It looks like your woofers are facing the same direction and wired out of phase? Is there a size, or way to calculate the size of the slot so as not to cause any chuffing?
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                Comment


                • Kornbread
                  Kornbread commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Can this tune the output similar to a ported subf?

                • scholl
                  scholl commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes and no, the depth of the manifold controls the point where the subwoofer's high frequency breakup starts. At a 1/4 wavelength of the depth, cancelations start and the sub becomes unusable above that. Make it as short as possible. It's possible to create a "V" shaped manifold to extend that frequency. Smaller, thinner woofers may be needed.

                • Kornbread
                  Kornbread commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I was wondering about a v-shaped manifold as the hvac unit resides directly behind the access door. This might buy just enough room to let things fit.

              • #24
                And back to the OP and doing an IB in a truck.
                Before cutting a hole in the floorboard, how about going out the back? Cut a hole in the back of the truck cab and front of bed. Use an inflatable donut to seal the area between the cab and bed. Use a tonneau cover to keep everything in the bed dry. There used to be inflatable donuts made specifically for sealing between truck cabs and camper shells.
                I did once remove my truck's back glass, replace it with plexiglass, cut four 8" holes in the plexi, and vent a couple Orion 12xtr in an isobaric driven by an Orion 250hcca.
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                Comment


                • #25
                  5 Hz. Yea. lots of music there. Sorry, but solving problems that don't exist. Kind of like driving a new C7 Corvette down the road @ 35. You can, but it is pointless.
                  IB in a truck? Well, let us assume that the goal is to listen to music. There is darn no actual pop music with content below 60 Hz. Go test some CD's and you may be surprised. Not to hard to do a couple of 8's in a sealed box with a bit of eq at levels that would cause instant ear bleeds and distortion remaining below 10%. Too many are falling for the Fletcher Munson ( incorrect) definition of hearing 20 to 20. Almost no males can hear above about 16 or 17, and much below 40 is more feel than hear. Only a pipe organ has a natural note down to 32. My viewpoint of course. 7 billion people in the world, so more than one viewpoint.

                  Shiva. That is a brand I had not heard for a while. Top notch if I remember.

                  Push-pull. Big fad a while back with some magic about canceling distortions caused by the basket. I thought it had gone away along with magic speaker cables and foil triangles.

                  Comment


                  • scholl
                    scholl commented
                    Editing a comment
                    All true but. if a person uses a pair of woofers with 24hz Fs in PPSL they'll get good deep bass without trying if they have the environment to build it in.

                • #26
                  Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                  5 Hz. Yea. lots of music there. Sorry, but solving problems that don't exist. Kind of like driving a new C7 Corvette down the road @ 35. You can, but it is pointless.
                  IB in a truck? Well, let us assume that the goal is to listen to music. There is darn no actual pop music with content below 60 Hz. Go test some CD's and you may be surprised. Not to hard to do a couple of 8's in a sealed box with a bit of eq at levels that would cause instant ear bleeds and distortion remaining below 10%. Too many are falling for the Fletcher Munson ( incorrect) definition of hearing 20 to 20. Almost no males can hear above about 16 or 17, and much below 40 is more feel than hear. Only a pipe organ has a natural note down to 32. My viewpoint of course. 7 billion people in the world, so more than one viewpoint.

                  Shiva. That is a brand I had not heard for a while. Top notch if I remember.

                  Push-pull. Big fad a while back with some magic about canceling distortions caused by the basket. I thought it had gone away along with magic speaker cables and foil triangles.
                  Shiva is a driver from Adire Audio who were early adopters of xb^2 tech. IIRC, this tech, or a derivative of it, has recently reappeared in a higher-end manu.

                  No pop music content below 60hz.? Not all of us listen to pop. Have you listened to pop since the 80s?

                  I would say more like 40hz than 60hz., but a grand piano can reach <30hz. while some reach <17hz., bass guitar <60, and most any edm/house/synth compositions reach below, well, if you had a system capable of true low end you were to play Bass I Love You you would be able to see/feel your woofers pulsate around 10hz. Even reverb of the concert hall can be caught in the lower resisters helping to recreate the original performance. So for you, maybe it is solving problems that do not exist. For some of us, maybe we don't like leaving part of the music out even if we only feel it.

                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                  http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                  Comment


                  • scholl
                    scholl commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Lot's of pop music with very low frequencies. The SACD of DSOTM for starters. Buoyance, Billie Ellis, Kanye, Massive Attack, Trombone Shorty.

                    I do hear some studio noise the got left in the mix too. The producers probably couldn't hear it on their systems. I hear all of that on my TD15S too. They go to 20hz in room.

                • #27
                  Originally posted by Kornbread View Post
                  And back to the OP and doing an IB in a truck.
                  Before cutting a hole in the floorboard, how about going out the back? Cut a hole in the back of the truck cab and front of bed. Use an inflatable donut to seal the area between the cab and bed. Use a tonneau cover to keep everything in the bed dry. There used to be inflatable donuts made specifically for sealing between truck cabs and camper shells.
                  I did once remove my truck's back glass, replace it with plexiglass, cut four 8" holes in the plexi, and vent a couple Orion 12xtr in an isobaric driven by an Orion 250hcca.
                  Yes, I thought about that too. I have actually done a blow through in an older truck of mine. Worked fantastically for 7 years, and never leaked a drop of water Too long a story, but I did use rubber from an inner tube from a bus... rivets, silicone, etc.
                  Also, I do have a bed cover which I love, and would not get rid of.... but it wont freely blow around like a soft cover. Its fiberglass.

                  I talked to the guy that was a national champion for SQL, and I mentioned putting the IB subs in the front of the bed (in a blow through arrangement), with the bed cover, and having only cloth, at the tail gate.... and he said, that could totally work, but that would effective turn my bed into a giant horn.... which would be a whole new ball game. Not necessarily bad, but would need to be played with and tested.

                  Think I'll stick to the floor



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                  • #28
                    BTW, I have a good sized collection of music with bass down to 20 hz. Of course, if I had a system that could play well below 20 hz, Id have to search out a selection of even lower bass tracks. Its out there, you just have to know where to look.

                    Hey btw, this is a fun one in my truck ;) If you are able to play low bass... in your vehicle, or your home, it doesn't matter, just check it out
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7XntN5citQ

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                    • #29
                      Well, guess I haven't really helped out much.

                      I'll check out the tunes after the fam leaves the premises.
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

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