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  • Looking for ideas on some new mains

    Ok let me try this again to help with some of the concussion. I’m looking to build a new se of mains for my HT. Right now I have a pioneer elite VSX-23 receiver but I plan on upgrading to most likely a denon in the future. I have a budget of around $500 with some flexibility This will be mostly for movies with some music playing (all kinds of music) I don’t play at ref levels but I do blast it as loud as I can given who’s home. I would like a ported box, even tho I have a sub I’m the only one who uses it so it’s normally off unless it’s movie time. Looking for either a MTM or TM style set up with sizes being somewhere between 10”w 24ish in height. One will be on my sub other one I’ll be building a stand for now. This is my room set up, I sit about 8ft for tv and this is in my living room. As far as brands it’s a wide range but pretty much anything from www.solen.ca I have been looking at the Dayton RS180 either 8 or 4ohm versions. Main this is I’m not looking for a kit I have to buy as shipping costs and exchange rates are far too high, and I get mdf for free so that helps in saving some money. I hope this helps with some of the confusion, I’m trying to understand all of this as much as I can so please bare with me lol.

  • #2
    On paper, the new SB ceramic drivers look very good. I would pay more attention to ease of blending between mid and woofer. Maybe a DeApolitto alignment MTM using the 6 inch and 1 inch. I think they come in 4 and 8 Ohm, so MT 8 Ohm mains, and two 4 Ohm MTM center. There is a newer Peerless ceramic dome that looks good too. RS180 would be VERY hard to tame unless a 3 way and crossed very low. It is a poor choice for just a 2 way. My HT are RS150's and they take a 4th order crossover at a minimum!

    I have used a lot of RS series Daytons I like them for their low distortion, but dealing with their breakup required very steep crossovers. Li living room set is similar to the Zaph SR-71, but I used the al/mg tweeter as I think it is smoother than the soft dome SEAS.

    Good speakers are , well good speakers, HT, music, should not care. Clarity is the 3 to 5K region where our ears are most sensitive, so quality of the tweeter maters a lot. Boutique crossover parts are a waste of money until you are buying $1000 drivers. PE films are just find. Spend your money on the drivers. I think some designs have been published for the SB drivers if you are not going to do the design. Look at the Seas designs as well.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
      On paper, the new SB ceramic drivers look very good. I would pay more attention to ease of blending between mid and woofer. Maybe a DeApolitto alignment MTM using the 6 inch and 1 inch. I think they come in 4 and 8 Ohm, so MT 8 Ohm mains, and two 4 Ohm MTM center. There is a newer Peerless ceramic dome that looks good too. RS180 would be VERY hard to tame unless a 3 way and crossed very low. It is a poor choice for just a 2 way. My HT are RS150's and they take a 4th order crossover at a minimum! I have used a lot of RS series Daytons I like them for their low distortion, but dealing with their breakup required very steep crossovers. Li living room set is similar to the Zaph SR-71, but I used the al/mg tweeter as I think it is smoother than the soft dome SEAS. Good speakers are , well good speakers, HT, music, should not care. Clarity is the 3 to 5K region where our ears are most sensitive, so quality of the tweeter maters a lot. Boutique crossover parts are a waste of money until you are buying $1000 drivers. PE films are just find. Spend your money on the drivers. I think some designs have been published for the SB drivers if you are not going to do the design. Look at the Seas designs as well.
      I was looking at the Rs180 because of the modula mtm and tm speakers from htguide. But I’m coming to the understand that these drivers are hard to pull off. Are there any builds using the new sb drivers ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, at least a couple. Check their WEB, Madisound, Minscus etc, the usual haunts. Also look at he published designs on the Seas site.

        A budget killer, but I would love to play with a couple of the Transducer Technology tweeters. Not on Social Security though. I pretty much was impressed with SB. Now we have another splinter, Wavecore. Not tried them but from smart guys. I have had good luck with SEAS drivers, but they can take some care. Scan Speak seem to take a lot and are expensive for that much work, but there are a lot of designs where they have been worked out. But hey, look what it took to tame an T27/B110 KEF for the Ls35a!

        Study the designs. Read the fine print from the designers as it may give some hints a fancy chart does not. Look carefully at how they described their measurements as it is an easy game to make a flat graph that sounds like do-do.

        Another observation. Even well behaved drivers, long before breakup, their distortion rises. So, my goal to get breakup at least 40 dB down gives some guidance on what it is doing at crossover. 50 dB makes me even happier. I and my better half may be more sensitive to this kind of distortion. Clear evidence by the fans of some designs that I would not wish on the worst trolls out there. ( all horns for example) Their ears, their preferences. I can only describe mine. We have both a generation who went to Who concerts stoned and have no hearing and then their kids with ear buds who have no hearing. Even my fathers generation, he flew B25-s so he had no high frequency hearing left. That explained why he liked his AR-2 speakers. They had no high end but he couldn't tell.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aceman View Post
          I was looking at the Rs180 because of the modula mtm and tm speakers from htguide. But I’m coming to the understand that these drivers are hard to pull off. Are there any builds using the new sb drivers ?
          Jeez, misinformation abounds.

          Aceman - IMHO, you will need a MTM with 180mm drivers if you like to crank it up at times (as do I!)
          The SB drivers are pretty great. But the Dayton drivers are a better value for your budget.

          Jeff Bagby designed a highly-regarded MTM with the RS180 and RS28.
          I sort of mimicked that design and used the Peerless DX25 tweeter.
          I didn't need any 4th order crossover on the RS180 to suppress the breakup nodes.
          Here is the link to my design.
          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ther-rs180-mtm

          I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
          "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

          High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
          SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
          My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

          Tangband W6-sub

          Comment


          • #6
            As far as confusion, it was mostly on my part, thinking you currently had those Fusion speakers you pictured. Very sorry, I don't think I helped you much at all.

            One thing, I recently purchased two of the old style Dayton RS28 tweeters from a forum member. You might try and do the same, and then build Jeff Bagby's RS180 MTM.

            I always jump on these threads from new members looking for build advice. I've been around here for a while, but I know next to nothing about actually designing a speaker. That's why I try to find something from a "proven designer" to suggest. I don't want you to build this or that, my purpose, in my mind at least, is to show you designs you probably weren't aware of.

            I'm not qualified to comment on donradick's design, but he has been here for ages, I can't imagine him suggesting a design he wasn't confidant of.

            Lastly, please investigate the 4 ohm capability of any AVR you might purchase. It opens up your choices of DIY speakers.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by djg View Post
              As far as confusion, it was mostly on my part, thinking you currently had those Fusion speakers you pictured. Very sorry, I don't think I helped you much at all. One thing, I recently purchased two of the old style Dayton RS28 tweeters from a forum member. You might try and do the same, and then build Jeff Bagby's RS180 MTM. I always jump on these threads from new members looking for build advice. I've been around here for a while, but I know next to nothing about actually designing a speaker. That's why I try to find something from a "proven designer" to suggest. I don't want you to build this or that, my purpose, in my mind at least, is to show you designs you probably weren't aware of. I'm not qualified to comment on donradick's design, but he has been here for ages, I can't imagine him suggesting a design he wasn't confidant of. Lastly, please investigate the 4 ohm capability of any AVR you might purchase. It opens up your choices of DIY speakers.
              I wish I had those fusions lol and no worries about the confusion it happens I’m definitely trying to use a proven designers plans as I know nothing about everything hahaha. I’m basically going to be building a whole 5.1 for now and then I’d like to get more.

              Comment


              • #8
                I looked at the Ochocinco HT system I linked earlier. The MTM and TM are both "solid 8 ohm" impedance. The Dayton ND140 is a real budget performer. The ugliness can be alleviated with a black baffle or rear mounting. Although only 5 1/4" woofers, all the ND woofers are known for high excursion toughness.

                "Proven designer"

                Detailed write up.

                Drivers sold by Solen (The Vifa tweeter is now Peerless)

                Budget performance.

                Certainly worth a read. Ignore the ugliness, you can do better.

                https://www.divine-audio.com/ochocinco/

                Comment


                • #9
                  This where if you are building some one else's design you will find disagreements. There is no one best design. So, eventually we build our own design so we can fix what is most important to us.

                  I'll give Don the 4th order, my new repackage of my 150's I would up third order electrical but with a notch for the first breakup. Got it down to about 45 dB in simulation. ( coils on order ) What I measure on the peak is a bit higher than the smoothed response they publicize. The MTM I had to go fourth. Just enough difference between the 4 and 8 Ohm versions. Both are about 1800 Hz which is about as far as I can push the 27TDFC down. I prefer the 27TBFC/G actually. Smoother. The soft dome actually fails my wife's critical ear. Well worth the additional $5.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by djg View Post
                    One thing, I recently purchased two of the old style Dayton RS28 tweeters from a forum member. You might try and do the same, and then build Jeff Bagby's RS180 MTM.
                    I have the drivers and crossover parts to build Jeff's RS180 MTMs (the Denhams). However, I got the old RS28 drivers a few years ago and they are pretty hard to find now. If you post a WTB (want to buy) thread in the classifieds here at Tech Talk you might be able to get a pair. If that works, that is a good option for mains but if you are going to build a 5.1 system getting 5 of those tweeters will be even more of a challenge. (But, if you could find them, Jeff also designed a TM (the Tango) that would be voice matched for surrounds).

                    A lot of the MTMs with the RS180s used that same NLA tweeter. I'm not as convinced as others that you need an MTM, I have TMs that go plenty loud if I am within 3 meters of them. (By plenty loud I mean I could NOT turn them all the way up without it being uncomfortably loud. If I put them out on my deck and was 6 meters out in the yard, that is a different story.) But if you want the MTM, donradick's design meets your goals.

                    Some TM options are the Sambas and Amiga (floor standing) at Parts Express. The crossovers are publicly available on the product pages and I think Solen carries the drivers.
                    There is an MTM option using the RS180P (paper cone rather than aluminum) called the Slapshots that was available at RAD (rhythm audio design) and designed by Curt Campbell but I don't see it there anymore. But you could reach out to them and see if they would give/or sell you the plans.


                    Originally posted by Aceman View Post
                    I was looking at the Rs180 because of the modula mtm and tm speakers from htguide. But I’m coming to the understand that these drivers are hard to pull off. Are there any builds using the new sb drivers ?
                    There are two kits available at Meniscus. In this case "kits" include drivers and crossover parts but not flat-pack cabinets so you wouldn't be paying shipping on some heavy cabinets that you can build yourself.
                    Keramiskas and SB Revolution, both of which have been demo'd at some of the DIY events and very well received.

                    In terms of a 5.1 system, I would point out that the typical MTM laying horizontally is for aesthetics and is not optimal for acoustics. Thus, if you build TM speakers and can use one as the center speaker this should be fine. The typical challenge is if the TM speaker is tall many people don't have room under their TV to place it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by a4eaudio View Post


                      Some TM options are the Sambas and Amiga (floor standing) at Parts Express. The crossovers are publicly available on the product pages and I think Solen carries the drivers.
                      There is an MTM option using the RS180P (paper cone rather than aluminum) called the Slapshots that was available at RAD (rhythm audio design) and designed by Curt Campbell but I don't see it there anymore. But you could reach out to them and see if they would give/or sell you the plans.
                      .
                      The Slapshots were my first DIY project, and they're great: people just can't believe how good they sound, especially for the money. They use the Morel CAT 378 tweeter, which is relatively expensive, but the XO parts count is low so the cost is offset somewhat. The mid-range in particular is very impressive, but the bass is also good down to about 40Hz or so. They can play loud enough to annoy the neighbors.

                      The drivers are still available, but I'm not sure how you would obtain the XO and cabinet details, try RAD as suggested above.

                      Geoff

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                      • #12
                        I built a 2-way in 2014, the Brillante', pairing an RS180-4 with an SB26STAC-C000-4 tweeter. Dan Neubecker designed the crossover. I've attached a 1-page Highlights for this build. They sounded quite nice to my ears, especially considering their cost (8-element crossover). I built another 2-way in 2017, the Brioso, using an SS18W/8531 with a Transducer Labs N26CR2-A tweeter. Quite a bit more expensive and really good sounding and impressive. Dan did that crossover, too (7-element crossover). I'm currently listening to my latest build, also a 2-way, having an RS180P-4 paired with an RST28F-4 (9-element crossover). I'm very pleased with how it turned out. The point is there's no reason to not consider such designs.
                        Paul
                        Brillante highlights.doc

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think Aceman is a new builder. A complete writeup such as the Ochocinco has is very advantageous for a new builder. Cut diagram, parts list, large clear pictures of the crossovers, a Q&A section giving permission to build even if the builder doesn't have a plunge router and circle jig. All of these things to me are very important.

                          We want him to succeed.

                          Just my opinion.

                          ND140

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud05Y0e6u0
                          Last edited by djg; 08-27-2020, 03:00 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by djg View Post
                            I think Aceman is a new builder. A complete writeup such as the Ochocinco has is very advantageous for a new builder. Cut diagram, parts list, large clear pictures of the crossovers, a Q&A section giving permission to build even if the builder doesn't have a plunge router and circle jig. All of these things to me are very important.

                            We want him to succeed.

                            Just my opinion.
                            Thanks, I have built a few things so far and for the most part I have all the tools. I have built 2 pairs of overnight sensations for the kids desks(which sound amazing) and a sub called the hammer by Steven Smith.
                            Attached Files

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                            • djg
                              djg commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Nice work, me assuming again. I just added a vid of the ND140 woofer.

                          • #15
                            Those look pretty sweet

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