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Fast tracking my knowledge of compression driver and throat diameters

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  • #16
    And this goes to why marketeers started calling horns wave guides. It mainly has to do with listening with your eyes. You see a horn, your eyes tell you it has to sound like the horn on a car. If you call it a wave guide instead of a horn that helps get the buyer past the 'horns sound honky' prejudice. In a blindfolded test EQ'd for the same response you can't tell a horn from a dome, or for that matter a titanium diaphragm from phenolic, until you turn them up, and then the inherently low distortion of the horn will become apparent, or the high distortion of a dome will be revealed, depending on which way you prefer to look at it. I agree that for the most part horn loaded midrange and high frequency isn't the best choice in the home, but that's based on the wider dispersion of domes, not better sound quality. That can still leave distortion an issue for those who like it loud but want the dispersion of domes. Getting around that is why my center channel has six domes, while my L/R have twelve each.
    www.billfitzmaurice.com
    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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    • #17
      Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
      And this goes to why marketeers started calling horns wave guides. It mainly has to do with listening with your eyes. You see a horn, your eyes tell you it has to sound like the horn on a car. If you call it a wave guide instead of a horn that helps get the buyer past the 'horns sound honky' prejudice. In a blindfolded test EQ'd for the same response you can't tell a horn from a dome, or for that matter a titanium diaphragm from phenolic, until you turn them up, and then the inherently low distortion of the horn will become apparent, or the high distortion of a dome will be revealed, depending on which way you prefer to look at it. I agree that for the most part horn loaded midrange and high frequency isn't the best choice in the home, but that's based on the wider dispersion of domes, not better sound quality. That can still leave distortion an issue for those who like it loud but want the dispersion of domes. Getting around that is why my center channel has six domes, while my L/R have twelve each.
      Yeah, and somebody always heard some horn speaker somewhere (they can seldom say what it was) and it sounded nasal, or honky, or whatever. Honestly, I think it's just a standard part of audiophilia now.
      Francis

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      • #18
        Originally posted by fpitas View Post
        I don't know what Altecs you heard. In any event, thousands of recording engineers had (and some still have) Altec 9846s, with 511 horns. I guess they could all have defective hearing. Seems unlikely.
        Personally, I can't wait to set up and give PA style speaker a try. I got my standard Troel 3WC with some large dual subs but hoping that a PA style speaker will give me some more thump and slam in my music listening. I admit there are many compromises but as I get some experience I'll know what to upgrade and should tie in a decent active crossover DSP PA style system.

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        • #19
          No, but it may explain some of the mixes I have heard. But consider, the engineer wants to hear the worst of the worst to fix it. They want to know their monitors, good and bad. They don't want to change and have to re-learn a different monitor. Remember how many L100's were used as monitors. They were infamous for making the slightest defect horrible. Great for monitoring, not what I want in my living room. Mostly the standard "Just Bloody Loud" mid-range hump. The one advantage I can see is the ability to cross over below the critical mid-range. 1200 or so. Of course, somehow these horns even for PA use seem to get matched to a 15 inch woofer that should not attempt anything over 300.

          We all have or preferences, otherwise speakers would just come n small medium and large.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Trdat View Post
            Ill be going active crossover DBX 234 balanced version and using software DSP. I know DSP is not magic and there is a lot of experimentation to it but I hope i'll manage to tie it in well. My only concern is the compression drivers ability to play down to about 1200hz so my 15 inch deltalite 2015 won't beam as i think the deltalite is really only good till 1000hz. .
            No 15" should be operated above 1khz. Do you own any of these drivers yet or is the project still in the planning stage? The 15+1 combo is easily the worst PA speaker design possible.. just too many compromises have to be made to get only half decent results. Of course there are commercial examples that sound way better than they have any right to(Yamaha DXR15) but that box has world class engineering expertise behind it that a DIY effort just won't match... no offence intended.. I can't do it either. There are a select few 1" drivers that can operate this low but they often tradeoff highend response to get it or the amount of SPL that can be generated goes way down.
            You will have subs too right? If so there is no need for a 15" mid, you could downsize to 8" or 10" which will work much better with the crossover frequency needed for a 1" CD. If you're dead set on using 15's then you should be using a larger format CD to get the crossover as low as possible. With a 2" exit driver you will get vastly superior SQ with a lot less work, these larger diaphrams just perform so much better at midrange frequencies and the better examples can still produce respectable topend with some DSP help.
            Paul O

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Paul O View Post

              No 15" should be operated above 1khz. Do you own any of these drivers yet or is the project still in the planning stage? The 15+1 combo is easily the worst PA speaker design possible.. just too many compromises have to be made to get only half decent results. Of course there are commercial examples that sound way better than they have any right to(Yamaha DXR15) but that box has world class engineering expertise behind it that a DIY effort just won't match... no offence intended.. I can't do it either. There are a select few 1" drivers that can operate this low but they often tradeoff highend response to get it or the amount of SPL that can be generated goes way down.
              You will have subs too right? If so there is no need for a 15" mid, you could downsize to 8" or 10" which will work much better with the crossover frequency needed for a 1" CD. If you're dead set on using 15's then you should be using a larger format CD to get the crossover as low as possible. With a 2" exit driver you will get vastly superior SQ with a lot less work, these larger diaphrams just perform so much better at midrange frequencies and the better examples can still produce respectable topend with some DSP help.
              Alternately, I measured a Radian 475PB on a 511. Its resonance had been pulled down to 500Hz by the horn loading. You could probably cross the combo at 800Hz or so...

              Also, a friend uses JBL2426s with the Radian aluminum diaphragms, crossed at 800Hz. Sounds quite good.
              Francis

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                there are commercial examples that sound way better than they have any right to(Yamaha DXR15)
                On-axis, sure. Off-axis, no way, at least not at close range. That's not necessarily a concern in a club when you're thirty feet or more away, but it's a major concern in a living room. If you're going to get adequate dispersion from a fifteen in a living room 800Hz is as high as you want the woofer to go. 500Hz is even better, but that brings time align issues into play. They're easily cured if you bi-amp and have DSP that allows you to time align, which is a lot easier than horn loading the woofer ala the Altec A-7. But purists who go to high sensitivity speakers to allow use of low powered SET amps tend to shun 21st century technology out of hand.

                www.billfitzmaurice.com
                www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                  On-axis, sure. Off-axis, no way, at least not at close range.
                  I agree 100% but I think this matters much more for PA applications where one of the main goals is covering a large area as opposed to a home system where often only one listening position matters.

                  Paul O

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                  • #24
                    Bouncing around trying to find information from this century. Some of the stuff from Crowe makes sense ( and has the plots to support it) What I have heard from every horn based system I have ever heard may be a combination of older really poor drivers and the traditional older Altec style horn. I doubt JBL or Altec, just slap together any old junk, but maybe they do.

                    He gives some indication a well executed bi-radial may be suitable for high fidelity. One of his positions is to toss out the efficiency argument as amplification is now so cheap. Directivity control is where to look. How to get the sound to the back of the room without the front going deaf and the sound changing drastically as you move around. I have heard much better PA using line arrays in the small venue where the room is usually terrible than any coffee house classic big driver/horn on a post. Maybe a modern horn with 6 or so 8 inch woofers in a short line so one is not trying to force a too big cone into its breakup range to reach the horn.

                    Can't speak for the DBX crossover. I had the Berhringer version and tossed that POS away. Noisy, took forever to boot. I would not use it for PA let alone HI-FI.

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                    • #25
                      I have heard several horn speakers in a hi-fi living room setting, and most were quite good sounding. With anything it is all in the design and crossover.

                      Did this thread really need to turn into a bashing horn thread?

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                      • #26
                        They usually do.
                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paul O View Post

                          No 15" should be operated above 1khz. Do you own any of these drivers yet or is the project still in the planning stage? The 15+1 combo is easily the worst PA speaker design possible.. just too many compromises have to be made to get only half decent results There are a select few 1" drivers that can operate this low but they often tradeoff highend response to get it or the amount of SPL that can be generated goes way down.
                          You will have subs too right? If so there is no need for a 15" mid, you could downsize to 8" or 10" which will work much better with the crossover frequency needed for a 1" CD. If you're dead set on using 15's then you should be using a larger format CD to get the crossover as low as possible. With a 2" exit driver you will get vastly superior SQ with a lot less work, these larger diaphrams just perform so much better at midrange frequencies and the better examples can still produce respectable topend with some DSP help.
                          You read, read, read and read and there is always something new that pops up in audio. I was emulating the Econowave which was a 12 inch but was really keen on a 15 incher. Then I saw the DIYsoundgroup version with a 15 inch and thought it should work. Was under the impression the Denovo was similar to the DE250 unless they are and you just think its a design with too many compromises? I have bought the drivers so its too late unfortunately, but I understand your concern the last few days I have been contemplating that I have a large gap between the 15 inch and the 1 inch compression driver and the low frequencies from the compression driver will loose SQ. I should of gone with a 12 inch or a larger compression driver. Either or...

                          I do have subs yes, I have 2 sealed subs that are fairly decent, you feel the thump and there nice and tight. And I am dead set on the 15 inch, I am after the slam and the punch you get from it. Well, that's what I've been told a 15 inch delivers over many of the smaller counterparts. I have already designed the cabinet its emulating a SBB4 alignment on the Deltalite 2015 and I can plug the port which will make a .65 QTC sealed cabinet so I am keen on the cabinet design, its versatile and can play around with it. Everything has been CNC milled, the holes and recess hence why I will presumably change the compression driver if it doesn't work out. That won't be too hard, I can change the front baffle and just glue it on it's easy enough. I can keep the DE250 for another pair of DIY speaker that will mate with a 8 or 10 inch.

                          So would you recommend a minimum of 2 inch compression driver that can easily play down to around 700hz?

                          And also can you tell me your reasoning on why the Woofer can play above 1000hz? My understanding is that you don't want to go higher than about 800hz? Not just from Bill's comment above but the transition will be smoother crossed over lower.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                            On-axis, sure. Off-axis, no way, at least not at close range. That's not necessarily a concern in a club when you're thirty feet or more away, but it's a major concern in a living room. If you're going to get adequate dispersion from a fifteen in a living room 800Hz is as high as you want the woofer to go. 500Hz is even better, but that brings time align issues into play. They're easily cured if you bi-amp and have DSP that allows you to time align, which is a lot easier than horn loading the woofer ala the Altec A-7. But purists who go to high sensitivity speakers to allow use of low powered SET amps tend to shun 21st century technology out of hand.
                            Well, I am using DSP so time aling issues are not a problem. So it seems that a better compression driver is the best option to reduce the compromises?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                              I agree 100% but I think this matters much more for PA applications where one of the main goals is covering a large area as opposed to a home system where often only one listening position matters.
                              Can someone confirm this? So for PA application covering a large areas is the main goal so off axis is more important? And in a home application off axis is not as important?

                              So if it is not as important then what is the compromise that we can go with?

                              Did I understand this correct?

                              So then is the beaming of the 15 inch not as important or its still vital for a smooth transition? Or was something else the compromise?

                              Sorry for the questions but this is key for me to conceptualise.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                                Can't speak for the DBX crossover. I had the Berhringer version and tossed that POS away. Noisy, took forever to boot. I would not use it for PA let alone HI-FI.
                                I can't vouch for the DBX either, it definitely has a hiss and you can tell the SQ is effected but very little.

                                I have a Marchand XM66 no hiss super quite practically transparent although another model was measured and the results weren't bliss. The problem with the XM66 is that its two way, I need a 3 way.

                                Ultimately, I will feed my MiniDSP UDIO-8 into 3 different DAC's tri amping it and use digital filters for crossover function. The UDIO-8 measures okay enough to be transparent with some jitter but overall it will give me full DSP control and versatility. I will protect the the compression driver with capacitor and hope for the best.



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