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Fast tracking my knowledge of compression driver and throat diameters

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Trdat View Post

    Can someone confirm this? So for PA application covering a large areas is the main goal so off axis is more important? And in a home application off axis is not as important?

    So if it is not as important then what is the compromise that we can go with?

    Did I understand this correct?

    So then is the beaming of the 15 inch not as important or its still vital for a smooth transition? Or was something else the compromise?

    Sorry for the questions but this is key for me to conceptualise.
    For home use, many people are content with limited dispersion, or even desire it. I've seen people using beaming horns who were perfectly happy with them, and simply sat in the sweet spot. They toed-in the speakers to point at their ears. So it's a matter of taste and preference. For a DJ, obviously the whole room needs to get the sound reasonably evenly.
    Francis

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Trdat View Post
      So for PA application covering a large areas is the main goal so off axis is more important? And in a home application off axis is not as important?
      .
      It's the other way around. The beam gets wider as you go further away from the source.
      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Trdat View Post
        I have bought the drivers so its too late unfortunately, but I understand your concern the last few days I have been contemplating that I have a large gap between the 15 inch and the 1 inch compression driver and the low frequencies from the compression driver will loose SQ. I should of gone with a 12 inch or a larger compression driver. Either or...
        No you won't have a gap but you won't be able to cross the 15 as low as the ideal, start at B&C's recommended 1.6khz and experiment up and down, if you're not pushing a lot of power through these a lower crossover is a possibility but I don't know what your listening preferences are.



        Originally posted by Trdat View Post
        So would you recommend a minimum of 2 inch compression driver that can easily play down to around 700hz?
        For Pro applications definitely but now that I understand this is for a home listening system I think you have more options that will still deliver really good in-axis SQ. A 2" driver with a lower crossover does sound different than a 1", It's one of those thing people don't realize until it's been pointed out but when there is a crossover anywhere in the middle of the vocal range the sound gets smeared.. intelligibility isn't as clean is it could be. 700-1khz is still technically inside the vocal range(500-5khz) but it's close enough to the bottom of the range to be good, now the majority of vocals comes from 1 point source and intelligibility is noticably improved.

        Originally posted by Trdat View Post
        And also can you tell me your reasoning on why the Woofer can play above 1000hz? My understanding is that you don't want to go higher than about 800hz? Not just from Bill's comment above but the transition will be smoother crossed over lower.
        The transition can be smooth even at 2khz it just takes processing(in and out of band EQ and time alignment) but other performance parameters are compromised. 1Khz is technically a bit high but for Pro applications where I play mostly other factors like driver protection come into play. BTW.. I own a whole bunch of modern powered PA speakers including a pair of DXR15's as well as some larger passive boxes with large format (2" exit) compression drivers.



        Paul O

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        • #34
          Few 2" compression drivers respond well past maybe 8kHz, unless you get a beryllium diaphragm.
          Francis

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          • #35
            Originally posted by fpitas View Post
            Few 2" compression drivers respond well past maybe 8kHz, unless you get a beryllium diaphragm.
            That's just not true, their natural response does fall off past 8khz but with EQ I can get flat response to 15khz from a B&C DE750(3" titanium diaphram) or an EV DH2012(3" aluminum diaphram).
            Paul O

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Paul O View Post
              That's just not true, their natural response does fall off past 8khz but with EQ I can get flat response to 15khz from a B&C DE750(3" titanium diaphram) or an EV DH2012(3" aluminum diaphram).
              I'm talking about the diaphragm breakup. Everything except beryllium tends to turn into an undulating mess past about 8kHz with 4" diaphragms. Sure, you can smooth it on the measurement, but you'll still hear it.
              Francis

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              • #37
                Yeah.. don't have any of those but I can see that being a problem. Thankfully we don't have to go that big the reap the benefits, 2.5-3" diaphrams significantly extend lowend response without totally killing the topend.
                Paul O

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                  Yeah.. don't have any of those but I can see that being a problem. Thankfully we don't have to go that big the reap the benefits, 2.5-3" diaphrams significantly extend lowend response without totally killing the topend.
                  What about a super tweeter for the top end?

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                  • #39
                    That is a valid option but how much topend extension do you need, how good is your hearing? The beauty of the large format CD is that it is a single point source for a large chunk of the audible spectrum so it qualifies as a good example of less is more, but on the other hand integrating a supertweeter for a little bit of air and sparkle wouldn't be that difficult.
                    Paul O

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by kevintomb View Post
                      I have heard several horn speakers in a hi-fi living room setting, and most were quite good sounding. With anything it is all in the design and crossover.

                      Did this thread really need to turn into a bashing horn thread?
                      I think some here are getting me wrong. Horns are the first choice for some applications. Right tool for the job. I have never heard a decent horn for living room use. I have not heard every horn in the world. Add to the fact that they must be physically large and large amplifiers are now cheap, their advantages get outweighed for living room use. For PA use, that is a totally different problem and their advantages become significant. Now older drivers with terrible response, horns that have sharp edges, modes not correctly addressed and worse, some actually resonate as they are cast aluminum or too thin plastic I consider fair game as there is no excuse just as there is no excuse thinking a 12 or 15 inch woofer can cross over @ 1200! Tell me, what good is a 98dB efficient tweeter when the woofer is 86? About the only affordable horn based speakers on the market are the various Klipsh, and my criticism stands firm. A few wave guide systems, mostly not that great either.

                      In PA use coverage matters, but it is not a simple answer. Are you talking PA for a high school football stadium, mega arena, or a small club? Different problems, different solutions.

                      Trdat: Quality matters for sure. Frequency response is not the only parameter. If a PA for announcing a ball game, then distortion does not matter as much. Small jazz club, maybe a lot more.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

                        I think some here are getting me wrong. Horns are the first choice for some applications. Right tool for the job. I have never heard a decent horn for living room use. I have not heard every horn in the world. Add to the fact that they must be physically large and large amplifiers are now cheap, their advantages get outweighed for living room use. For PA use, that is a totally different problem and their advantages become significant. Now older drivers with terrible response, horns that have sharp edges, modes not correctly addressed and worse, some actually resonate as they are cast aluminum or too thin plastic I consider fair game as there is no excuse just as there is no excuse thinking a 12 or 15 inch woofer can cross over @ 1200! Tell me, what good is a 98dB efficient tweeter when the woofer is 86? About the only affordable horn based speakers on the market are the various Klipsh, and my criticism stands firm. A few wave guide systems, mostly not that great either.

                        In PA use coverage matters, but it is not a simple answer. Are you talking PA for a high school football stadium, mega arena, or a small club? Different problems, different solutions.

                        Trdat: Quality matters for sure. Frequency response is not the only parameter. If a PA for announcing a ball game, then distortion does not matter as much. Small jazz club, maybe a lot more.
                        You summed it up. You haven't heard decent hi-fi horns. I'm sure you heard some horns somewhere. Great! Now, maybe my ears are crappy, but so are my friends' ears. Face it: you're wrong about horns for hi-fi.
                        Francis

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                        • #42
                          If you're ever in Times Square, go to the JBL flagship store and listen to the S9900s in the theater room. Then come tell us how crappy horns are.
                          Francis

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                          • #43
                            If anyone doubts that horns can sound excellent in a home setting, go listen to some Avantgarde's.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                              About the only affordable horn based speakers on the market are the various Klipsh, and my criticism stands firm. A few wave guide systems, mostly not that great either.
                              I think the responses you are reading reflect a lot of intensive development in both the commercial and DIY realms for both horns, and particularly wave guides. There have been many threads here over the past 5+ years showing the positive measured results of well-matched tweeters and WG and horns. You are absolutely correct that many of the foundational studies for horns were published decades ago, but your own experiences with speakers may not be the best basis for judging whether they are appropriate for home hifi. Efficiency, simplifying and improving crossover options, controlled directivity, and allowing the use of larger woofers in 2-way speakers are some of the primary benefits people are seeking when they dive in. That may not be your cup of tea, but many of us would give more credence to your opinion if you didn't start by dismissing the use of horns or WGs right off the bat.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by fpitas View Post
                                If you're ever in Times Square, go to the JBL flagship store and listen to the S9900s in the theater room. Then come tell us how crappy horns are.
                                Might also want to give the M2s a listen, though I think they have a more sterile/clinical sound, probably because they're designed as a monitor.

                                tvrgeek - you might want to look around and see what woofers are available. The last 8" midwoofers and the last 15" woofers I bought were rated at 95dB/W and measured pretty damn close. 98+ dB/W woofers and subwoofers aren't that uncommon.

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