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Fast tracking my knowledge of compression driver and throat diameters

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  • #46
    Originally posted by devnull View Post

    Might also want to give the M2s a listen, though I think they have a more sterile/clinical sound, probably because they're designed as a monitor.

    tvrgeek - you might want to look around and see what woofers are available. The last 8" midwoofers and the last 15" woofers I bought were rated at 95dB/W and measured pretty damn close. 98+ dB/W woofers and subwoofers aren't that uncommon.
    Last I was there, they hadn't set up the M2s where you could really do critical listening. They were just kind of hanging on a random wall upstairs, with the crowd milling around. Even my GF laughed, it was like being in Best Buy. Pretty lackadaisical, I'm sure they are worth hearing.

    Downstairs is where it's at. The theater room with the S9900s, and the Revel Salon2 room are both worth the visit.
    Francis

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    • #47
      The OP wants to build a good PA system. So my point is what do we know better now than when the old crappy Altec and JBL sectoral horns were SOP 40 years ago? What has improved on their uneven, raspy and harsh sound? Throat impedance, resonances, HD, refraction, etc. Better drivers? What profile for what application? Does a throat miss-match only effect efficiency, or distortion? This is not hating horns, it is asking how to improve them where they are the appropriate technology.

      Still won't put speakers the size of a refrigerator in my living room. My ego does not need "bigger is better". Until I hear a horn based speaker than has the cleanliness and detail of my own monitors, I am not about to change my viewpoint. Hearing is believing.

      The job of a studio monitor is to tell the engineer what is wrong with the sound. The job of a living room monitor is to tell the user what is right about the sound. Different requirement, different solution. And yea, a lot of professional sound engineers are half deaf as they listened to their monitors too loud for too long. So are a large portion of musicians.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
        The OP wants to build a good PA system.
        Actually he is building/modifying a home listening system

        Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
        So my point is what do we know better now than when the old crappy Altec and JBL sectoral horns were SOP 40 years ago? What has improved on their uneven, raspy and harsh sound? Throat impedance, resonances, HD, refraction, etc. Better drivers? What profile for what application? Does a throat miss-match only effect efficiency, or distortion? This is not hating horns, it is asking how to improve them where they are the appropriate technology.
        We have much better processing available, a better understanding of all aspects of performance on the part of the designers, and some improvements in driver design and manufacturing. As is often the case I think the harsh sounding horns of the past were in large part user error. That excludes the junky DJ level PA speakers systems that sounded ugly at any level, I'm referring to larger 3,4,5 way stacks that were the norm for touring bands way back when, sometimes the worst thing you could do is give a mix dude more ways to adjust and configure a system, it just turns into more ways to muck it up. I have heard some really sweet sounding horn loaded PA systems, but since getting some loudspeaker measuring tools and access to DSP I can't imagine how anybody in the past ever got even half decent results from a compression driver with just an analog crossover and 31 band EQ. The better drivers have always been better of course and the disparity between the truely good ones and the others is pretty large, I have some that are just nasty sounding and there is no fixing them, some that are not great out of the box but really come around with some processing, and others that barely need any processing. Your milage really does vary a lot with these things.
        Paul O

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        • #49
          Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

          I think some here are getting me wrong. Horns are the first choice for some applications. Right tool for the job. I have never heard a decent horn for living room use. I have not heard every horn in the world. .
          I think this is where you are differing from many in here. There are many examples of DIY and Retail speakers that use horns and have great sound. Also examples that have iffy sound. But the ones with iffy sound are often designed that way intentionally, or simply not designed well.

          A compression driver and horn can EASILY sound just as good as a more traditional "home tweeter". In fact it can have many advantages, beyond just output level.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Paul O View Post
            Actually he is building/modifying a home listening system



            We have much better processing available, a better understanding of all aspects of performance on the part of the designers, and some improvements in driver design and manufacturing. As is often the case I think the harsh sounding horns of the past were in large part user error. That excludes the junky DJ level PA speakers systems that sounded ugly at any level, I'm referring to larger 3,4,5 way stacks that were the norm for touring bands way back when, sometimes the worst thing you could do is give a mix dude more ways to adjust and configure a system, it just turns into more ways to muck it up. I have heard some really sweet sounding horn loaded PA systems, but since getting some loudspeaker measuring tools and access to DSP I can't imagine how anybody in the past ever got even half decent results from a compression driver with just an analog crossover and 31 band EQ. The better drivers have always been better of course and the disparity between the truely good ones and the others is pretty large, I have some that are just nasty sounding and there is no fixing them, some that are not great out of the box but really come around with some processing, and others that barely need any processing. Your milage really does vary a lot with these things.
            Agreed. I'm not sure I would have ever been happy with mine if I had to use passive crossovers. When the horn voice coil is two feet behind the woofers', there's just no substitute for digital time delay.
            Francis

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            • #51
              Originally posted by fpitas View Post
              When the horn voice coil is two feet behind the woofers', there's just no substitute for digital time delay.
              That's the reason behind the Altec A7 design. I took a different route with my horn loaded PA mains. The acoustic centers of the tweeters are in front of the woofers. That way the psycho-acoustical result is that the highs have more presence, which is a good thing in typical PA use environments. Not that I would use either A7s or my own PA tops in my home, not when I can get all the sensitivity and output I need from small driver line arrays that only extend out eight inches from the walls.

              www.billfitzmaurice.com
              www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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              • #52
                Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                That's the reason behind the Altec A7 design. I took a different route with my horn loaded PA mains. The acoustic centers of the tweeters are in front of the woofers. That way the psycho-acoustical result is that the highs have more presence, which is a good thing in typical PA use environments. Not that I would use either A7s or my own PA tops in my home, not when I can get all the sensitivity and output I need from small driver line arrays that only extend out eight inches from the walls.
                Well, I admit I started out just playing around, seeing what I could get a 511 horn to do. Like all hobbies it grew into a monster, and there may be other ways to do the same thing, but I like the end result.
                Francis

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