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  • #16

    Jeez, not all drivers will work well in a TL and obviously I'm only talking about drivers that will as there's no one box type that's optimum for any or all drivers. I don't need an adjustable port, or what have you, for any of my designs because what I model will work as modeled, period, no prototypes needed. I do prefer using drivers with a Qts in the 0.35 to 0,50 range because almost without doubt they will perform well, so I choose drivers that are appropriate. Your mind is obviously still in the past regarding TLs.
    Paul

    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    3Rutu5, Do notice HD goes up as impedance goes down. Actually as current increases. So overkill ( more outputs than one might normally use) is an advantage. I have no idea how a class D works in this matter.

    Paul, How about data? I hear what you are saying, but still don't buy it. How much is really useable 2 octaves below cutoff? Nada. Totally agree, driver parameters need to match the loading technology. A good ported driver usually is not happy sealed and vice-versa. We calculate EBP for a reason, or at least we should. It does make it hard to direct compare the three enclosures even if you fake the same baffle. I can buy the more distributed cabinet resonances in a tapered TL, but they are not hard to deal with in a box either. I see it as a wash with the back wall tending to be so close to the woofer on most designs.

    I actually prefer low to critically damped sealed for my woofers as they integrate with the room gain much better. Boxes can get big if not careful driver selection. To boot, I don't need any HP filter for it. ( though easily implemented in the input or VAS stage.) Low Q boxes have an advantage of being very driver tolerance forgiving. A move from .5 to .55 is not going to be noticeable.

    For mid-bass, I am using a crossover anyway. Think, how may times have you seen a 40 Hz speaker crossed over at 60 or 80? TLs work, and some very fine speakers have been made, no argument. I am not in any way picking on your speakers. For the obvious reason, I have not heard them! But I still see them as obsolete. Give me the volume you used on a TL and I can find a different driver to give even lower cutoff. Ysyally when people rave about a TL is for upper bass or mid clarity. Well, that actually has nothing to do with the loading method. Could be better driver selection, better cabinet reflection controls, etc. Not the low end where the loadings different. TL or sealed, 300Hz is going to be whatever the driver itself is doing! Switch argument to the OB fans on that one.

    FWIW, have not had difficulty finding optimum tuning freq for years. I use an adjustable port on my prototype. Set as calculated, measure, adjust, repeat as necessary. Calc is usually darn close. I guess one could design a variable length TL or if a fan of stuffing, then a removeable side would work to the same effect.


    Francis, First Watt on the horns. About as clean an amp as I know of. ( I have thought about one myself) Well, that is what Paul Klipsch asked for years. I heard a different really good Class A on a set of K-horns. Still sounded raggedy and harsh. I'll still grab a horn first for a PA, last for my living room.

    Comment


    • #17
      Conrad-Johnson Premier 12 mono-blocks driving Finalist Monitors, newly re-tubed and very musical
      Parasound A21+ driving Philharmonic 2 clones
      Carver M1.0t, modded to MrkII rev.2 currently holding down a shelf
      Carver M500t same usage model as above
      Sansui BA2000 in for restore

      Guess I have a problem....
      If life were fair, Elvis would still be alive today and all the impersonators would be dead.
      ~ Johnny Carson

      Bungelow Ed's Photo Album http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?u=8594

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

        Please explain " will perform better"
        I don't really want to fuel the debate on TLs as I am totally not au fait with their design principles or speaker design, but Mr K designed a MLTL cabinet for me and his design has more natural sounding bass than the original vented cabinet. And yes, I tested both designs and used the same crossover. I don't have measuring equipment but the calculated F3 of the TL is lower and I could hear the difference.

        I also built Curt Campbell's 'Slapshot' MLTL speakers and they sound great.

        To look at a less subjective example of one aspect of TL performance, let's consider a much built, great sounding example: Curt's Tritrix MTM.

        Sealed, F3 is about 100Hz;

        Vented cabinet, F3 about 50Hz;

        TL cabinet, F3 about 40 Hz: so why is that not 'better' than the vented design?

        I hasten to add the I built the vented and it sounds good, I just didn't have the space for the TL but would have built it if I could.

        Re the OP, we still use an ancient Yamaha RX-596 receiver!

        Geoff

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        • #19
          I guess you do have a problem since your speakers are Philharmonic 2 clones that are ML-TLs that I designed for Philharmonic Audio.
          Paul

          Originally posted by bungelow_ed View Post
          Conrad-Johnson Premier 12 mono-blocks driving Finalist Monitors, newly re-tubed and very musical
          Parasound A21+ driving Philharmonic 2 clones
          Carver M1.0t, modded to MrkII rev.2 currently holding down a shelf
          Carver M500t same usage model as above
          Sansui BA2000 in for restore

          Guess I have a problem....

          Comment


          • #20
            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...rgument-thread

            Comment


            • 3rutu5
              3rutu5 commented
              Editing a comment
              Haha, seems legit

          • #21
            On topic:
            Some very nice amps out there but not helping the OP find one suitable for his speakers and space requirement.
            The class AB Parasounds are rated for low impedance loads. ( they would be my first choice)
            Some of the ICE-Power boards do give a power rating for 2 Ohms, so may be safe.
            The Sure boards are only spec @ 4 Ohms.
            Dayton boards do seem to have a 2 Ohm rating
            I do not believe any of the chip-amp AB boards are stable @ 2 Ohms or with a high C load.

            Hijacked topic:
            We completely agree, all drivers are not suitable for all loading. I think we agree differences are from F3 down, rather than all the magazine mumbo jumbo about midrange transparency which has nothing to do with the acoustic impedance seen by the driver.

            I again highlight the advantage of a critically damped woofer blending with room gain. No big deal if F3 is 50 Hz, but it is with 20. So if using a large woofer to get full range, you are now walking 3-way and will have a crossover to the mid-woofer higher than that drivers F3 anyway, making alignment moot. I advocate for as little active equalization as possible. If the TL is the full range system, then for a given box volume, I can select the appropriate driver to give lower F3. I can use a LT to argument a sealed system to match a ported.

            Legit argument: Space for a speaker stand for a small box is wasted as the footprint can be the same as a TL.
            Legit argument: Cost of a TL box is not significant for DIY.
            Legit argument: Size and weight are not a cost factor for shipping as they are on a commercial system. Jumping from standard UPS to CC is a big deal.
            Not legit argument: Saying "ported is 50, TL is 40". Many ported alignments, many F3s. Need to specify. ( Plus those numbers are more than optimistic for the stated driver)

            I don't know what TL modeling software anyone has. The "King" stuff does not seem to be posted anymore and requires Mathcad. Has anyone tried to use his electrical model in Spice?

            Again, I am not saying a TL is bad. They can be excellent. Just obsolete. My daily driver is a '65 MG. Obsolete, but excellent.

            Comment


            • #22
              My main “hifi” amp is a rogue sphinx v2, which uses hypex boards for the output section. Sounds clean and pleasant. Only note is they are rated 100@8r and 200@4r - realistically expect not an ounce more than 100@8 and a solid 150@4. I’d recommend the hypex boards for their nice sq, just understand you may need to step up to the next size if you like a lot of headroom.

              Comment


              • #23
                Got a first gen Theta Dreadnaught, an Emo something or other, and a couple little guys from SMSL.
                Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

                Comment


                • #24
                  I'm going to end my part of this TL discussion by simply saying that TLs are not in the least obsolete, only the way they were originally "designed" is obsolete and which you seem to be stuck on. While Martin King's modeling modeling software is NLA, George Augspurger also developed similar software that may still be available. I'm fortunate to have Martin's programs on two computers and backup disks, along with MathCad.

                  Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                  On topic:
                  Some very nice amps out there but not helping the OP find one suitable for his speakers and space requirement.
                  The class AB Parasounds are rated for low impedance loads. ( they would be my first choice)
                  Some of the ICE-Power boards do give a power rating for 2 Ohms, so may be safe.
                  The Sure boards are only spec @ 4 Ohms.
                  Dayton boards do seem to have a 2 Ohm rating
                  I do not believe any of the chip-amp AB boards are stable @ 2 Ohms or with a high C load.

                  Hijacked topic:
                  We completely agree, all drivers are not suitable for all loading. I think we agree differences are from F3 down, rather than all the magazine mumbo jumbo about midrange transparency which has nothing to do with the acoustic impedance seen by the driver.

                  I again highlight the advantage of a critically damped woofer blending with room gain. No big deal if F3 is 50 Hz, but it is with 20. So if using a large woofer to get full range, you are now walking 3-way and will have a crossover to the mid-woofer higher than that drivers F3 anyway, making alignment moot. I advocate for as little active equalization as possible. If the TL is the full range system, then for a given box volume, I can select the appropriate driver to give lower F3. I can use a LT to argument a sealed system to match a ported.

                  Legit argument: Space for a speaker stand for a small box is wasted as the footprint can be the same as a TL.
                  Legit argument: Cost of a TL box is not significant for DIY.
                  Legit argument: Size and weight are not a cost factor for shipping as they are on a commercial system. Jumping from standard UPS to CC is a big deal.
                  Not legit argument: Saying "ported is 50, TL is 40". Many ported alignments, many F3s. Need to specify. ( Plus those numbers are more than optimistic for the stated driver)

                  I don't know what TL modeling software anyone has. The "King" stuff does not seem to be posted anymore and requires Mathcad. Has anyone tried to use his electrical model in Spice?

                  Again, I am not saying a TL is bad. They can be excellent. Just obsolete. My daily driver is a '65 MG. Obsolete, but excellent.

                  Comment


                  • #25
                    I use 2 Crown XLS 1500 Drivecore amps for my front/rear left and the other for front/rear right. Dayton DTA100 at PC. I have more around like a pair of APA150, a 2000 model Crown for events and a future sub, and the 1000 for future center channel use. The old Technics SA-EX810 was decent, but nowhere as powerful and clean as the Crowns.

                    Wolf
                    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                    *InDIYana event website*

                    Photobucket pages:
                    http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                    Comment


                    • #26
                      Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                      I'm going to end my part of this TL discussion by simply saying that TLs are not in the least obsolete, only the way they were originally "designed" is obsolete and which you seem to be stuck on. While Martin King's modeling modeling software is NLA, George Augspurger also developed similar software that may still be available. I'm fortunate to have Martin's programs on two computers and backup disks, along with MathCad.
                      Hornresp does a pretty good job as well, particularly now that it can model offset vents as well as offset drivers.
                      Brian Steele
                      www.diysubwoofers.org

                      Comment


                      • #27
                        Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                        I'm going to end my part of this TL discussion by simply saying that TLs are not in the least obsolete, only the way they were originally "designed" is obsolete and which you seem to be stuck on.
                        +1. When the Voigt TQWT was conceived in 1934 the standard design philosophy for bass reflex cabs was to use a non-ducted port the same area as the cone, with tuning accomplished via the size of the enclosure. The only thing that's obsolete about TLs is their presence in the marketplace, if for no reason other than WAF.

                        www.billfitzmaurice.com
                        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                        Comment


                        • #28
                          Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                          I guess you do have a problem since your speakers are Philharmonic 2 clones that are ML-TLs that I designed for Philharmonic Audio.
                          Paul
                          Hi Paul,

                          I suspected you were the TL designer, just didn't want to make the statement and then be told not so.

                          BTW, Dennis Murphy provided design feedback and the x-over schematic for these clones to a close friend of mine. My friend built the pair I have and then lent them to me on a long-term basis. Might be the best sounding speakers I've owned. They have been set-up continuously in my listening room for the last 2+ years. Earlier this year I went looking to order a pair for myself, only to learn the Mr. Murphy is no longer building them.

                          Ed
                          If life were fair, Elvis would still be alive today and all the impersonators would be dead.
                          ~ Johnny Carson

                          Bungelow Ed's Photo Album http://techtalk.parts-express.com/album.php?u=8594

                          Comment


                          • #29
                            Then you might be happy to know that Dennis is back at it and will soon be releasing a 3-way MTM floorstander with the same woofer as in the Phil 3. I designed the enclosure for this new speaker but it's not truly a TL but a ported design optimized by using TL design techniques and Martin King's software. It is really close to the Phil 3's performance. Philharmonic Audio has not re-emerged, however, but you can visit his site to catch up. Also you can visit the AVS speaker forum and the long manufacturer's thread for Philharmonic Audio to catch up.
                            Paul

                            Originally posted by bungelow_ed View Post

                            Hi Paul,

                            I suspected you were the TL designer, just didn't want to make the statement and then be told not so.

                            BTW, Dennis Murphy provided design feedback and the x-over schematic for these clones to a close friend of mine. My friend built the pair I have and then lent them to me on a long-term basis. Might be the best sounding speakers I've owned. They have been set-up continuously in my listening room for the last 2+ years. Earlier this year I went looking to order a pair for myself, only to learn the Mr. Murphy is no longer building them.

                            Ed

                            Comment


                            • #30
                              If the TLdesign was a Voigt TQWT, it would likely be a very large cabinet and maybe not very attractive, but a TL cabinet doesn't have to be ugly. I've attached a Photo Gallery of 12 of my TL builds. Some are ML-TLs and some are negatively-tapered TLs. All of the tapered TLs are single-fold designs so that the line has a length of twice the cabinet height resulting in line lengths of 5 to 6 feet or more. Some of the ML-TLs also have a single-fold line, but in others they don't and with the line length simply being the internal height of the cabinet. All of my designs have external heights in the 38- to 40-inch range. I hope that some of what I show would have reasonable WAF.
                              Paul


                              Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                              +1. When the Voigt TQWT was conceived in 1934 the standard design philosophy for bass reflex cabs was to use a non-ducted port the same area as the cone, with tuning accomplished via the size of the enclosure. The only thing that's obsolete about TLs is their presence in the marketplace, if for no reason other than WAF.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Paul K.; 09-27-2020, 12:40 PM.

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