Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questions / Planning for Big PA Party Speakers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post

    Thanks Glenn, I saw that listing from your other message this morning. It's definitely tempting as the Lab15 driver alone is $300 new. 36" x 36" x 24" feels pretty big size-wise too. I'd have to figure out where to store it when it's not being used. At that point I'd still need an amplifier to drive it too.
    You may not need a zillion watts for one of Bill's horns. Dunno.
    Francis

    Comment


    • #47
      The THT isn't the best tool here, for the same reasons that the UM-15 isn't. It goes much lower than you need for music, with less sensitivity than my pro-sound horn subs. Hoffman's Iron Law applies to horns too. That said, it will still beat a direct radiating UM-15 in every respect, by a significant margin.
      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
        The THT isn't the best tool here, for the same reasons that the UM-15 isn't. It goes much lower than you need for music, with less sensitivity than my pro-sound horn subs. Hoffman's Iron Law applies to horns too. That said, it will still beat a direct radiating UM-15 in every respect, by a significant margin.
        I was thinking that, for the money, if your THT would suffice for realistic volume usage, and one less cab to have to build, the tops could be done for less money too. Keith, how loud are going to push this system, and would you ever use it for a full band, or just music playback only. One of my bands uses 2 Danley horns loaded with ferrite B&C 18's, and we don't even come close to making work hard, and they are no fun to have to lift, or roll across anything other than a smooth, flat surface. Glenn.

        Comment


        • #49
          Drummer Glen, thanks for pointing it out to me. I appreciate you sending me an option to save some money! I think at some point a proper Pro-sub would be in order, Maybe a Tuba 24 from billfitzmaurice. I am still researching and working on the PA tops. Following up on the suggestion for 2x10 with compression driver horn is yielding something interesting. SB Acoustics just released their SB Audience pro line, and their Bianco 10" woofers and compression drivers seem like a good fit at a reasonable price. Vb = 1.5 cuft for the 10MW150 driver, Vb = 2 cuft for the 10MW200 driver. Xlim = 20mm for both.

          Thinking TMM style to keep the horn up high. Looking to see if PE has any similar offerings.

          Click image for larger version

Name:	SB Audience Bianco 2x10 transfer functions.PNG
Views:	115
Size:	183.6 KB
ID:	1456045 Click image for larger version

Name:	SB Audience Bianco 2x10 SPL.PNG
Views:	113
Size:	182.3 KB
ID:	1456046 Click image for larger version

Name:	SB Audience Bianco 2x10 Cone Ex.PNG
Views:	129
Size:	189.0 KB
ID:	1456044
          Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
          Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
          The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
          SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
          The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Drummer View Post

            I was thinking that, for the money, if your THT would suffice for realistic volume usage, and one less cab to have to build, the tops could be done for less money too. Keith, how loud are going to push this system, and would you ever use it for a full band, or just music playback only. One of my bands uses 2 Danley horns loaded with ferrite B&C 18's, and we don't even come close to making work hard, and they are no fun to have to lift, or roll across anything other than a smooth, flat surface. Glenn.
            Forgot to mention - I don't have any bands playing live in mind, but being capable of that would be nice. In my head this is the overkill system I bring out to have fun with my friends, have a halloween block party, things like that... ya know... for when we're allowed to stand next to each other again!
            Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
            Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
            The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
            SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
            The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

            Comment


          • #51
            Originally posted by fpitas View Post
            Behringer has earned their rep for spotty quality, but if you happen to get a good one, they're a real bargain. Just make sure you buy from a reputable dealer, in case you do get a lemon.
            I've read that they fall far short of their claimed watt/power-output...if true, that kind of puts a big dent in the power4money benefit they should offer.
            Might be worth checking for 3rd party measurements/reviews before plunking good money on a particular model if you need it for its power as well as the DSP.
            My first 2way build

            Comment


            • #52
              Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
              I'd have to break my vow of distain for Behringer products and use an NX3000DSP bridged to power it
              Can that thing really produce 124dB broadband? How much power does that require? If it's the full theoretical output of the iNuke then I'm not optimistic for the survival of the Ultimax in a pro sound application... even factoring in the BS factor included in all Behringer marketing because 99.75% of that 2500-3000w goes directly into heating the voice coil. That is how driver sensitivity translates to electrical efficiency.. what percentage of the electrical power gets converted to sound.
              Click image for larger version

Name:	sensitivity-efficiency.png
Views:	102
Size:	10.7 KB
ID:	1456062
              Paul O

              Comment


              • #53
                Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                Can that thing really produce 124dB broadband? How much power does that require? If it's the full theoretical output of the iNuke then I'm not optimistic for the survival of the Ultimax in a pro sound application... even factoring in the BS factor included in all Behringer marketing because 99.75% of that 2500-3000w goes directly into heating the voice coil. That is how driver sensitivity translates to electrical efficiency.. what percentage of the electrical power gets converted to sound.
                Paul, I definitely learned something there! I never really considered how much power becomes voice coil heat vs. actual mechanical motion and thus sound pressure production. To be honest with you and LOUT , I would guess a real-world output closer to 1000W from their "3000W" bridged amp.
                Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
                The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

                Comment


                • #54
                  I'm pretty sure the voice-coil heat that a speaker can handle is expressed as its wattage-handling spec...so a speaker by a reputable brand that claims to handle 3000watts should be able to handle the heat of 3000watts (at least as music....not necessarily constant sinewaves or pinknoise).

                  The XMAX will also matter just as much for a driver handling bass since whichever limit the speaker hits first (xmax or wattage/heat) will limit it even if the other spec isn't reached yet...though I think the Ultimax and many other well-made subwoofers are pretty balanced for running out of wattage and Xmax around the same time depending on the box-size/bass-extension you aim for.
                  My first 2way build

                  Comment


                  • #55
                    Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
                    To be honest with you and LOUT , I would guess a real-world output closer to 1000W from their "3000W" bridged amp.
                    Actually it does better than that, when bench tested the Nu6000 (which is a pair of bridged Nu3000's in a single chassis) managed 2kw/ch and in that test the power supply proved to be a limiting factor. This is a common theme with class D amplifiers, often the amp circuitry itself is capable of really extreme output levels but manufacturers cut corners on the power supply and bottleneck it's potential. But then you also have to consider the bench testing methodology, traditionally this was done with sine waves but newer standards specify noise signals with higher crest factors(peak to average ratios), so amplifiers these days are not designed for "welding duty" like the old heavy iron amps of the past, they are built to a standard that supposedly better matches the demands of real music with less long term continuous output and more short term peak output potential.
                    Paul O

                    Comment


                    • #56
                      Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                      Actually it does better than that, when bench tested the Nu6000 (which is a pair of bridged Nu3000's in a single chassis) managed 2kw/ch and in that test the power supply proved to be a limiting factor. This is a common theme with class D amplifiers, often the amp circuitry itself is capable of really extreme output levels but manufacturers cut corners on the power supply and bottleneck it's potential. But then you also have to consider the bench testing methodology, traditionally this was done with sine waves but newer standards specify noise signals with higher crest factors(peak to average ratios), so amplifiers these days are not designed for "welding duty" like the old heavy iron amps of the past, they are built to a standard that supposedly better matches the demands of real music with less long term continuous output and more short term peak output potential.
                      Yes, I was going to mention that. Unless you are using it to drive a shake table or some other laboratory use, real music has a pretty hefty peak/ave power, at *least* 6dB even for super-compressed metal, for example.
                      Francis

                      Comment


                      • #57
                        Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post

                        Forgot to mention - I don't have any bands playing live in mind, but being capable of that would be nice. In my head this is the overkill system I bring out to have fun with my friends, have a halloween block party, things like that... ya know... for when we're allowed to stand next to each other again!
                        Oh yeah! In that case, go for the baddest horn setup that you can justify and afford. For. Outdoors, a horn load per side should do. I think the cabs that we run are 12 cft, and using both of them, with a pair of tops, makes for a rockin' party. Very clean with a good size kick. Glenn.

                        Comment


                        • #58
                          Funny that you mentioned shake tables. We have a quad of big Bryston amps at work driving shakers. I have dibs on these amps when we decide that we aren't doing that any more. It's been over a decade and those Brystons haven't missed a beat. Very impressive...

                          Comment


                          • #59
                            Originally posted by LIDAR View Post
                            Funny that you mentioned shake tables. We have a quad of big Bryston amps at work driving shakers. I have dibs on these amps when we decide that we aren't doing that any more. It's been over a decade and those Brystons haven't missed a beat. Very impressive...
                            Brystons are nice. Of course you need deep pockets lol. I nearly got a Bryston, but "cheaped out" and got a Parasound A21 instead for my mids.
                            Francis

                            Comment


                            • #60
                              Hey guys - Following up on my post in #49 above, and suggestions by tvrgeek, LIDAR and jhollander Since the 15" two-way is a design compromise I don't necessarily have to make, I'm thinking through a mid/hi PA cabinet top in a more dedicated sense. Currently thinking through a 2x10 with 1" horn in a TMM arrangement, and it seems like a good bridge between having "some" audible bass and full range ability with DSP/EQ at first, while retaining some better midrange clarity. Once I can expand and build some subs later, I can remove the EQ and UN-boost the bass for pure Mid/Hi PA top use.

                              TMM designs are fairly common in HiFi use, but are there any PA / Live Sound watchouts for trying this arrangement? Any thoughts on the model I included above?

                              Thanks again for the help with my learning and planning!
                              Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                              Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                              The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                              SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
                              The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X