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Questions / Planning for Big PA Party Speakers

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  • #61
    An alternative to a 10" TMM is a high power long xmax coax. I specify the Eminence KL3010-CX for high output in my Simplexx 10 PA top. It has as much low end output as a pair of Beta 10s. It's not cheap, but it can be worth the cost to use a cab half the size of a 2x10.
    www.billfitzmaurice.com
    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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    • #62
      KE, just do the model looking at X-MAX with any EQ you might apply. PA drivers are probably going to produce permanent ear damage before they run out of travel though. The more drivers in the column, the narrower the vertical dispersion, so the sound will focus further away. If I were to build a PA, it would be a column of about 8 8's. and yes Francis, a horn on top!

      Originally posted by fpitas View Post

      Brystons are nice. Of course you need deep pockets lol. I nearly got a Bryston, but "cheaped out" and got a Parasound A21 instead for my mids.
      My plan was a P6 /A23, but being retired and the cost of "new" house repairs, went Parasound 2125 and a Schiit DAC/pre. Sounds fine to me. I have to laugh as halt the time we see a product like the Bryston, it hooked up to some $600 speaker, but with $300 cables.

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      • #63
        Eight 8s is OK, if you don't mind the expense, but if you're going to make a line array of midbasses put a line array of tweeters right next to them.

        www.billfitzmaurice.com
        www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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        • #64
          Originally posted by fpitas View Post
          Brystons are nice.
          I had a first gen 4B for a few years, it was nice but was too heavy for mobile applications so I sold it again and now that same 50lb rack has 4 times the power in it . I have long been a fan though, our residence house in college would routinely rent PA systems for house parties and they often supplied a 4B with it, we would run that thing so hard it was literally too hot to pick up with your bare hands at the end of the night. but it never once let us down.
          Paul O

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          • #65
            I see a lot of JBL TMMs, not sure that makes them right, but you would not be alone. I like to set a target SPL and sensitivity level then pick/ add drivers to reach the goal. My friend and brother in a band says size and weight are the most important factors. One of the coolest PA systems I saw was a prototype JBL system (so I was told) with a pole mounted 8-inch coax and subwoofer.

            This was indoors at a large wedding reception and I thought it was one of the better systems I've heard. Outdoors it might be meh...

            Someone needs to add a lab12 folded horn design to this discussion.
            John H

            Synergy Horn, SLS-85, BMR-3L, Mini-TL, BR-2, Titan OB, B452, Udique, Vultus, Latus1, Seriatim, Aperivox,Pencil Tower

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            • #66
              Speaking of outdoors we have a pretty tight noise curfew, if the house is rockin after 10:00 PM the cops come knockin.
              John H

              Synergy Horn, SLS-85, BMR-3L, Mini-TL, BR-2, Titan OB, B452, Udique, Vultus, Latus1, Seriatim, Aperivox,Pencil Tower

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              • #67
                Originally posted by jhollander View Post
                I see a lot of JBL TMMs, not sure that makes them right, but you would not be alone. I like to set a target SPL and sensitivity level then pick/ add drivers to reach the goal. My friend and brother in a band says size and weight are the most important factors. One of the coolest PA systems I saw was a prototype JBL system (so I was told) with a pole mounted 8-inch coax and subwoofer.

                This was indoors at a large wedding reception and I thought it was one of the better systems I've heard. Outdoors it might be meh...

                Someone needs to add a lab12 folded horn design to this discussion.
                Thanks John. Target SPL and sensitivity would be good goals, although size and weight are really important too, especially when I decide to take these somewhere! I should look at coax designs to that end a bit more too. At this point I'm just modeling a bunch of drivers and seeing what I can get out of them with DSP/EQ. 120 dB at full tilt seems to be the maximum I get from most woofers (gee... ONLY 120 dB???) And that would still be ~high 90 dB range from 40 feet away... but I'm not planning to push them that hard either. I'd like to stay in the high 90's for sensitivity just so I never run out of speaker before my ears say too much. All in all I just try to model things where if a drunk idiot finds my volume knob he won't blow out my drivers, but he will have signed up for a beating!

                And yes - folded horn subwoofers is another area I need to learn!
                Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
                The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

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                • #68
                  Since we are throwing out ideas, there is another design that may peak your interest called the Synergy horn. It's a coaxial of sorts but looks a little different than you might expect.

                  Click image for larger version  Name:	synergy.png?w=525.png Views:	0 Size:	73.8 KB ID:	1456160
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                  Paul O

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                  • Steve Lee
                    Steve Lee commented
                    Editing a comment
                    These things are so radical and technically beautiful that they need to be made of 1" thick plexiglass and internally illuminated!

                • #69
                  Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                  Since we are throwing out ideas, there is another design that may peak your interest called the Synergy horn. It's a coaxial of sorts but looks a little different than you might expect
                  Paul, I've only seen one synergy horn in my life, and that was jhollander 's Hifi synergy horn. I remember it sounded fantastic! I didn't know people made them as PA speakers too.
                  Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                  Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                  The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                  SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
                  The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

                  Comment


                  • #70
                    Oh yes the design started life as a PA horn, the designer Tom Danley has some truly astounding creations available now.
                    Paul O

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                    • #71
                      Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
                      Hey guys - Following up on my post in #49 above, and suggestions by tvrgeek, LIDAR and jhollander Since the 15" two-way is a design compromise I don't necessarily have to make, I'm thinking through a mid/hi PA cabinet top in a more dedicated sense. Currently thinking through a 2x10 with 1" horn in a TMM arrangement, and it seems like a good bridge between having "some" audible bass and full range ability with DSP/EQ at first, while retaining some better midrange clarity. Once I can expand and build some subs later, I can remove the EQ and UN-boost the bass for pure Mid/Hi PA top use.

                      TMM designs are fairly common in HiFi use, but are there any PA / Live Sound watchouts for trying this arrangement? Any thoughts on the model I included above?

                      Thanks again for the help with my learning and planning!
                      Maybe im not thinking quite on the same scale as what you are looking for, but I can only comment on what ive tried (Music/HT)...

                      The combo of the Selenium D220TI and Dayton H812 (adapters required) provides a rather flat response from ~18k down under 1k . Just pick your xo point for the needed task/power handling and run with it. Diaphragms are $13.50 if ya blow one experimenting with xo.

                      A 12" 2.5way might be able to reach your goals. Small enough to potentially get away with 1" CD, but big enough that two maintains as much displacement as a comparable 15. Though, xo may still be a bit high for full power handling. Adding a passive low pass on the second woofer acts as a baffle step buster reducing the need for so much eq boost.
                      Last edited by DrewsBrews; 11-12-2020, 02:00 AM.

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                      • #72
                        So I'm wrapping my head around a 2.5 way TMM with two 10" woofers in an Active DSP setup. I understand I'd just hang a few passive XO parts off the bottom woofer to roll it off early. The bit that's throwing me off is the inductor / capacitor size needed to do it. Am I missing something more obvious that doesn't cause a giant inductor bump?
                        Voxel Down Firing with Dayton SA70
                        Translam Subwoofers - The Jedi Mind Tricks
                        The Super Bees - Garage 2 way
                        SevenSixTwo - InDIYana 2018 Coax
                        The Defiants - InDIYana 2019 "Bare Minimum" Build

                        Comment


                        • #73
                          For a high pass protecting the woofer pick a cap that changes the slope of the roll off without changing the knee. The capacitor bump should be far enough away to prevent the bump/ woofer gain. If you are really talking about the low pass inductor bump then its a combination of smaller inductors with larger caps then adding a small resistor (damped second order)
                          John H

                          Synergy Horn, SLS-85, BMR-3L, Mini-TL, BR-2, Titan OB, B452, Udique, Vultus, Latus1, Seriatim, Aperivox,Pencil Tower

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                          • #74
                            When Ive played around with .5 designs in pcd Id start with an online baffle step calculator to give me the rough estimation of the rolloff frequency and put that in to calculate a low pass and adjust from there. The balance seems to be delicate between not having the low pass too high as to cause integration issues with the tweeter, and not having it too low to have excessive bumps as you are seeing. Trying different baffle widths may be necessary to hone it in. Hopefully someone more experienced has some input.
                            Last edited by DrewsBrews; 11-13-2020, 01:45 PM.

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                            • #75
                              Originally posted by KEtheredge87 View Post
                              So I'm wrapping my head around a 2.5 way TMM with two 10" woofers in an Active DSP setup. I understand I'd just hang a few passive XO parts off the bottom woofer to roll it off early. The bit that's throwing me off is the inductor / capacitor size needed to do it. Am I missing something more obvious that doesn't cause a giant inductor bump?
                              Maybe a dumb question, but are you asking about the inductor bump down near woofer FS that sometimes happens with large-value/low-R inductors, or are you asking about the mid-frequency spike that sometimes happens when you use a 2nd order LowPass without a resistor on the capacitor?
                              My first 2way build

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