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  • #16
    The Tritrix MTMTL SIMs like this (without BStep nor Z-axis offset info):
    Click image for larger version  Name:	TriTrix MTMTL schem.png Views:	0 Size:	6.1 KB ID:	1458494 Click image for larger version  Name:	TriTrix MTMTL graphs.png Views:	0 Size:	98.1 KB ID:	1458495



    A similar XO using a pair of ~$12/each, 3inch DMA80-4 woofers and the same DC28FS tweeter SIMs like this (without BStep nor Z-axis offset info):

    Click image for larger version

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    The 80-300hz range for these depends mostly upon the box size/port-tuning, and the rest looks like it might get pretty close.

    Normally the 300-2000hz range could be pretty noticeably affected by the box's much narrower front baffle shape/size, but I'm hoping being really near the TV/wall will help negate the BaffleStep effects.
    My first 2way build

    Comment


    • Spaker
      Spaker commented
      Editing a comment
      They are. You really didn't have to do all this. But thank you.

    • LOUT
      LOUT commented
      Editing a comment
      It's just a simulation in VituixCAD, and not a super thorough one. Real-world measurements would be a lot more accurate (and more useful), but the sim may still be a nice place to start feeling out if something might or might not work.

  • #17
    Experimenting to learn is all well and good, but not when you do so by going over the same ground that many have already covered. Reading one book can spare you twenty years of experimenting.
    www.billfitzmaurice.com
    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

    Comment


    • Steve Lee
      Steve Lee commented
      Editing a comment
      Or it can overwhelm you to the point of giving-up/not even starting.

      You have to start building and experiencing what those books and all that data you don't empirically understand are telling you.

      After some experimentation with the basics it starts to make sense and the longer you stick with the reading, experimentation and reading - eventually the light-bulb comes-on in your head for a very specific set of conditions.

      This now known logic assists in moving to a higher level of understanding and the hobby grows into an obsession giving greater pleasure from its returns.

      If we just do what we are told we are slaves to an-other's experiences and direction - much like the society we now live-in.

      This guy (OP) should just plow ahead with his spare parts-plan and come to understand and appreciate what you guys are pushing upon him.

      He will eventually join you in his understanding and possibly become your teacher if he does-so.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTd2npG1-I0

      Last edited by Steve Lee; 12-08-2020, 11:55 PM. Reason: spelling correction

    • Spaker
      Spaker commented
      Editing a comment
      Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I am not experimenting. I am not stumbling along picking up little pieces of knowlege to incorperate into my next experiments. And I have bneen doing this for a LONG *** time. Sorry I can't spend time sitting here talking about builds when I have the saw running. Note: it's 3:15AM, the only time I can waste on this. I came here for advice. Simple facts that.... nevermind. The only thing that weird about this is the shape and position of the center speaker. I bailed on making a soundbar but had an idea for a super wide center that used many small drivers in an array. Dumb idea I guess because half you guys think my house should be burned down with my kids sleeping inside. I came here to see if somebody would quickly say "run some full range in serries as loud as the mains. Add a tweeter and cross that over at 6k." That is all I wanted to know. Every center I have ever built had a very different design with very different size speakers. But I can get the "center" sound out of one of these.

      The sanctimonious horseshit for not having this **** down cold from some of you is BRUTAL. Who gives a damn what anyone else is building for the sole purpose of telling them a) what they are doing wrong, b) how they would do it, c) what needs to be purchased, and d) a totally different solution that costs a fortune, neglecting anything already done.

      It's the same all over the internet. Membership boards with the regulars who check new posts all day, waiting to slap down someone looking for random advice and tell them how ignorant they are for even asking.

      Experimenting. Pfft.

      I created a solution. The dry fit sounded amazing. I've never heard anything like it in a center. I tried to figure out how to give it some natural width.. I wired the extreme left and extreme right to the left and right main channels to enhance that audio sweep from side to side. I may use the first two on each side for the main left and right again. As for the rest. I put a filter on them so nothing below 170Hz gets through, and the tweeter takes over at 15500Hz. I adjusted the volume on the outer most speakers to impress depth.

      AND FOR CHRIST SAKES. ITS A FREAKIN KIDS TV PLAY ROOM.


      nobody is listening to symphonies or jazz records back there.

  • #18



    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    Most critical when not using an AVR with any EQ is that the "voicing" of the center be the same as the mains. About the only way to do that is for them to be the same, which you have deemed impossible as you have some old sound bar cabinet.

    No. I have a soundbar frame for a cabinet I designed and fabricated and then didn't like the look or where the controls were on it at all. The frame and dual shallow compartments for small drivers that need less Vas. It is well made and I have a lot of 2.5 - 3" full range drivers and a bunch of tweeters, as well as tiny amplifier PCB component kits perfect for this. Mono amplifiers that match the power needs of these small drivers. Stereo amplifier boards. Power supplies. Media Players that could be embedded: to read USB drive audio, SD cards, aux in, radio etc.


    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    If using an AVR, it can eq the center to be closer to the mains if they are reasonably close.

    Absolutely not. Using an AVR in this room would be like polishing the flatware at Wendys. This is not an exercise in being precise. The audience here will be audio dummies. Know what they say when they hear PERFECT audio? "It's too loud." Or "How come the explosions are loud and the talking in the hallway is quiet?" Dummies.


    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    So, optimum is what you don't have, and that would be an MTM upright the same as your mains. Trust me on this, when a voice moves across the soundstage and the tone changes, you will hate it.

    Quite the character, aren't ya, Mr. TeeVee?

    "The optimum is what you don't have."

    "Trust me on this..." "you will hate it." Dude… you sound like a Bond Villian!!

    So.... I actually DO have the sealed MTM you speak of. I have a pair that I made. On stands, in use. I also have two more TriTrix Baffles cut out for the original or I could quickly make up a center for this.


    But I am not doing that. Why? The purpose I stated immediately and then five more times. Here it is again: I am salvaging this soundbar frame I made to hang under a 50" that kids and idiots watch. To use it up. To use up a bunch of 2-3" drivers. There happens to be a lot of speakers in that room, that I made and some of you are familiar with. I just wanted to know if and how I should cross the center over, and how much power to give it. What to focus on, that sort of thing. A Gent above did this beautifully for me; quickly. And to HANG it up so nobody can touch it. Has to be hung up under TV.


    Look how this gent replied....


    Originally posted by Steve Lee
    Dude!
    Originally posted by Steve Lee


    The center channel from my experience watching movies needs to be responsive, loud and clear from around your sub crossover point (say 60 ~ 100 Hz) to around 16K or more as your hearing sensitivity dictates.


    The majority of the action and human voice dialogue will be coming from this center channel speaker - high sensitivity/low distortion is what I think is important.


    A horizontal array of smaller drivers could work for this with a tweeter in the center.


    OK - I'll let the experts/more knowledgeable finish up here. --- IF YOU HAVE MORE TO SAY, PLEASE DO ---


    Good luck and keep us posted.


    I asked for info and in a few phrases, he told me exactly what I wanted to know about power, frequency, additional drivers, a couple rules of thumb, specifics, encouragement and curiosity.




    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    Now, for your plan, if you must, a matching tweeter is a must. Full range drivers have very ragged response and fall off way before a tweeter. By full range, they really mean voice, not music. They can (some of them) make decent midranges. Getting tiny full range to go deep enough to match your mains crossover to the sub may not be possible. With enough of them, they may have enough x-max to eq the bass down to 80 or so, but not easy. If the sub is directly below them, then crossing @ 110 is OK. which tiny FR drivers can do if you have enough to push enough air.

    Agreed. Sort of. "I must?" No. I "mustn't" anything. Matching in ability - sure. I am not buying another one. Not for this. I have added a TBD tweeter for dead center and removed one of the full range drivers. Depending on how it sounds, I may add a second tweeter below the first, still center of the board. I'd really like to use what I have on hand. In particular, I have a SINGLE AMT MINI-8, one of those air motion tweeters, as the other in the pair was destroyed, and they are very expensive, I haven't had anything to do with a single tweeter of this kind. I have a couple ND20FA-6 tweets. Nothing special but very small. A couple DC28F-8 but they are huge and I don't think would even come close to fitting, some mystery fabric tweets from ebay that LOOK amazing and were inexpensive, a bunch of MCM Tweeter stock that are probably also too big. Not opposed to wiring up two if necessary. One over the other in the center?


    So.... the practical philosophy I see throughout the event here is that in general, the center low XO point should be the same XO point where the sub takes over for the mains. As far as using tiny full range drivers.... which? Many 3, 4, 2.5" drivers have progressed in their design and capabilities much further and faster than expected. I really do not see the issue with cutting the low end of the center at whatever point they can no longer produce frequencies low and loud enough to be of use within the team. Utilize the tweeter(s) I use at the same XO point at which the mains cross over. Isn't that the best way? I don't know, it just makes sense to me. I suppose a good XO wouldn't be noticed anyway.

    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    There is no way to provide direct guidance on tuning the crossover for the center to try and match your mains. I would not take that on myself. Even with identical drivers, it is sometimes hard to get the center voicing right as the surrounding reflections are different.

    Yeah, yeah, I know. I am not looking for a custom fitting for this silly room setup. I am not going to try to aim everything just right. People watching this set will be all over the floor, hanging off the arms of coches, curled up on eachother like gross teenagers, doing homework, Netflix, Nintendo.... you get the idea. No data will ever be run. No measurements will be taken. I will be leaving the DATS V2 and laptop and the iMM6 mic in the shop.





    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    I had some Paradigm mains and the "matching" center running a Rotel AVR with no eq. Horrible. Sold the center. My current HT uses the same Dayton /Seas but as the center is an MTM ( not D'Apolitto aligned as it is horizontal) where the mains are single in-wall flush. It took several tries to get the voicing where you can't detect the source. I am not sure I have it there yet. Even with my Anthem AVR. It's eq only goes up to 3K so the crossovers are different.

    Did ya, now? Cool. Sold the center? Cool. Built your own? Cool. Several tries and it still ain't right? Well... you'll get there. XO only goes to 3k? Bummer. Is that it? OH. No... there's more.


    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    Seriously, I would reconsider your plan and make a MTM center matching your mains. Providing you cross them over to the sub all at the same frequency, 80 Hz maybe, then the TL cabinet is not really doing anything for you and you can make the center ported or sealed depending on the drivers. Now what you wanted to hear.




    What you want me to do is create something that I already own a pair of, and if I were to use one or fabricate another, it cannot hang from a thin bracket under the TV that attaches to the "soundbar" and slides between the screen and it's wall mount. The bracket for the speaker hanging under the TV is bolted into the speaker cabinet, and held at the other end of the bracket by using the TV wall mount, the thin pieces of metal slide between the wall mount and the TV set, using the same bolts that hold the TV to the mount for the brackets now also holding the center speaker. The MTM would probably rip down the entire thing with it's weight. The screen is hung pretty high up on purpose. The speaker under it is long, and thin, made with 1/2" stock, light electonics and light drivers. The mount can handle another 20-30lbs before I hit the limit.


    I am not porting the center speaker. I built it so the cavities in the cabinet accomodate for the Vas each driver requires when sealed. The driver cavities on the sides are 1" deep, while the large cavity in the center is 2.25" deep. I installed threads for the bracket that will hold it. I made an oak baffle for chits and giggles. If it stands out, I'll duratex it.


    The center speaker is not going to be the centerpiece of this thing. The mains are. In fact, I have no idea how much all 6 speakers will even get used. But the main TriTrix MTMTL are what will be playing more than any other, I am sure.



    This Is Not My TV. I don't use it.


    I am using up "stuff," not junk, to complete a Frankenstein surround for this room, for the kids, and to clear a bunch of space in my shop so I can get to some serious stuff.


    I know everybody here is a semester short of their Speaker Design and Fabrication Doctorate, and I have been learning from you all and others for over a decade now. And I really appreciate it. You're all real good at this, can make better stuff than I can, know more than I do, have better taste than anybody, should never be questioned by me or those like me, are the best of the best, I'll never measure up, etc. etc.. I know this because I've made some pretty great stuff both from guidance from the site "elders," making it possible for me to create designs and fabricate speakers all on my own, that I listen to every day. But on the long journey, there are mess ups. Everybody messes up woodworking, especially when they are teaching themselves many techniques without another person present.


    There are equipment failures that are totally user generated and now have been eliminated. Melted terminals. Trim routing the flush mount shelf in a driver hole twice as wide as it should be. Not measuring twice on your last piece of MDF. Soldering like a three year old oil paints. Destroying PCBs with the worst soldering in the world. Destroying speaker terminals on a $85 driver with a soldering iron left close to it for too long, and the broken terminal falls in slow motion to the ground, melted. And worse. And worse. Injuries by being dumb in the shop. Shocks. Burns upon burns. Freehanding the router when a guide and fence was absolutely crucial, as the result loudly indicates. I've done all of it. And learned from it. When you learn like this, alone- but with communication via print correspondence, and having the use of all those past community resources, plus official guides, you end up reading yourself numb. The best is when the experts say one thing but regular folks online say the opposite, and trash is set on fire and we all watch the dumpster burn.



    I'm not mad or anything, Mr. TVGeek. It's just that this happens all the time. When people start building this stuff, it's only natural to experiment and fail, as well as experiment and find some cool stuff out. It's a hobby that costs some dough, will get you acquiring stuff you plan to use but has sat in a box for over a year. There are four "almost done" projects that just need this one thing, or you need to figure out this one huge issue to complete it. Accumulating discount drivers and drivers you planned on using and went a total different direction. Spent good money on them, so maybe someday you can use them.... I have about ten 8", 10", 15" and mostly 12" woofers and subwoofers in boxes, brand new. Why? Insane deal at some point. Eventually, the pile becomes too much and.....


    ME, personally. Just in my world and not as some kind of exemplary scholar on this.... think I should take all this new old stock and make or finish some of these projects lying around here. I want to reclaim my shop. That dumb soundbar frame I already have brackets for, and already have built and sunk threaded holes into - only needs a baffle and drivers wired up and it can be installed.


    My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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    • djg
      djg commented
      Editing a comment
      Do you expect us to read this?

  • #19
    Originally posted by DeZZar View Post

    Is this based on the idea that the presence of these features degrades the audio quality in some way?
    Not at all.

    Originally posted by DeZZar View Post

    IF it is man, I just have to point out a glaring irony of avoiding a proper home theatre receiver on the basis of audio quality whilst at the same time trying to create a theatre from a combination of spare parts.
    I guess half credit for attempted burn?

    And... These are not "spare parts" in the sense that they are garbage. Most of the drivers are extras from bigger projects, and indeed "spares." Some, like the ribbon tweeter was once a pair and the other got ruined somehow. Plenty of "use to be a pair" misfits in the collection. It may be Frankensteined, but it isn't trash. I have a couple MCM tweeters I briefly considered, but the rest came from Dayton or ... dammit.... that place in Indiana. DIY? Can't remember.

    Originally posted by DeZZar View Post

    But hey....as I said - sound is going to come out and you will either love it or not.
    I have heard it. It's a perfect, reference quality representation of the recordings I have played on it. Zero processing. If I put some sound dampening in, you could mix an album with this setup.



    My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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    • #20

      THIS THIS THIS THIS.... this is what I was also after. Thank you.


      Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
      Just assuming that you do end up with the five proper channels of audio through this splitter then the basic answers to your questions:
      It works great. I'll post info about it sooner or later.

      Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
      - the audio sent to a centre channel is as expansive in frequency range as any other channel. Movie tracks will dedicate voice and any sound effects intended to come from the front middle to the centre channel. Music and other effects is generally sent to the fronts with residual effects, sounds intended to come from the back, ambient sounds and echos dedicated towards the rear channels.

      - a centre channel should basically be full range (at least sub-crossover all the way up). As others have mentioned, ideally it is the same as the front speakers, or at least using the same drivers/top end.
      10-4. Kind of clarifies some previous intuition about surround usage. The same brand and model speaker thing.... I can't agree. If I can make the entire system work as one audio producing entity, and you can't tell what sound came from which cabinet, it doesn't matter at all.

      Originally posted by DeZZar View Post

      Does it matter that it isn't the same speaker? Does any of it matter? At the end of the day, as you highlight, it is entirely based on what you are happy with.
      HA Spoke too soon. See above.

      Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
      The reason it's ideal for them all to be the same is so that you are presented with an equally voiced sound stage. At the very least just make sure they all play at the same level. You'll have to play around with gain etc to get this right without a proper receiver. But again, if even that doesn't matter to you, dude ghetto up anything you want!
      Oh I get it. I used to do it. But once I started picking drivers that were complimentary, and started fooling with filters and crossover tweaking, it became a lot easier to get more "bang for the buck" by series wiring a couple inexpensive drivers with a filter and some clean amplifier power, and you can get the same result.

      Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
      Will sound come out of the speakers you've suggested?....yes. Once they are up and running you'll either be happy as can be OR if you aren't - refer the above reasons.
      Yes. It works. I ended up using a total of seven 2.5" full range and two ribbon tweeters. I wired them all up on a 150W mono amp. It sounds exactly as I wanted it to. Like an engineer's mix in a studioounds perfect, like a reference recording. Since every channel is on seperate amps, it took a minute to get the volumes right, but once that was done, it was amazing. The array ends up sounding like one entity producing the audio. And I was just testing them for like 5 minutes. Drilling and touch up and cable running tomorrow. Depending on how fast the wiring goes, I may have this installed by this time tomorrow. Perhaps a movie. Or .... oh.... yeah..... I forgot. I always listen to Dark Side of the Moon when I install a new pair of speakers. Kind of a tradition from 8th grade.



      My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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      • #21
        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
        Just assuming that you do end up with the five proper channels of audio through this splitter then the basic answers to your questions:
        I do have a great device that splits the audio into 5 RCA line out jacks. The HDMI retains everything about itself in the HDMI output, including resolution, and the original audio.


        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
        - the audio sent to a centre channel is as expansive in frequency range as any other channel. Movie tracks will dedicate voice and any sound effects intended to come from the front middle to the centre channel. Music and other effects is generally sent to the fronts with residual effects, sounds intended to come from the back, ambient sounds and echos dedicated towards the rear channels.

        - a centre channel should basically be full range (at least sub-crossover all the way up). As others have mentioned, ideally it is the same as the front speakers, or at least using the same drivers/top end.
        DING DING DING DING DING

        Great Stuff. Thank you times 100

        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
        Does it matter that it isn't the same speaker? Does any of it matter? At the end of the day, as you highlight, it is entirely based on what you are happy with.
        Correct Sir. Very Zen of you. I like doing it this way. I mixed recordings in studio and live for a long time. Without control of the parts, I feel like I cannot enjoy the music. I also want others to hear what the artist intended his song to sound like and really focus on recreating and playing back reference level audio. Exactly how it sounded in the studio. And it works.


        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
        The reason it's ideal for them all to be the same is so that you are presented with an equally voiced sound stage. At the very least just make sure they all play at the same level. You'll have to play around with gain etc to get this right without a proper receiver. But again, if even that doesn't matter to you, dude ghetto up anything you want!
        I pair wisely. Each compliments the other. It is their slightly unique sound that when blended, sound like the original. The same can be true for light. Or water.

        I take exception that I am ghettoing up anything. Or doing this in leui of a "proper receiver." I have stacks of receivers. All modern receivers use at least half a dozen signal processing techniques and treatments to the audio. And as soon as some moron gets into the menus and submenus.... it's over. No thank you. This is not ghetto. I fabricated all the cabinets. I designed all but the Tritrix mains. They all look and sound amazing. The center will be fantastic. I didn't just build it using this thread as guidance. I wired it and it sounds great with the drivers just strerwn on a table.

        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
        Will sound come out of the speakers you've suggested?....yes. Once they are up and running you'll either be happy as can be OR if you aren't - refer the above reasons.
        So I worked in corperate Audio Video and Projection for a decade setting up and taking down huge, intricate systems with the same basic parts, but configured differently each time. Convention centers packed with stages, lights, PA, cameras and projection. That crap. I can handle wiring up some drivers and crossovers. As far as "the reasons above," I already replied. So far, it is exactly what I wanted it to be. I listened to just the mains and the sub for a while earlier and got goosebumps. It's as close to a reference system as I know how to make. Always my goal. Reference sound, just like the band heard it played the first time. No EQ, flat as Kansas.
        My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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        • #22
          Originally posted by LOUT View Post
          What HDMI to RCA audio extractor are you using?
          Does it know how to pick out Left/Center/Right/Lsurround/Rsurround audio or is it just taking the regular stereo signal and splitting it out?
          It is a Chinese goodie. I am still looking for a USA product that does this and only this, but can't find one. Here is the one I got...




          eBay Link to product : HDMI Digital Digital Analog Audio Extractor Box Supporting 5.1 CH Surround, 2K, 4K, 3D, AC-3, DTS

          There are a bunch more since I got this one. Mine works great. It's exactly what I wanted.
          My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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          • #23
            Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
            A center does exactly the same thing as the L/R speakers do, which is to reproduce everything above the crossover from the subs, say 80Hz or so. Some 75% of the above subwoofer frequency content comes from the center, so by no means can you think of it as secondary to the L/R mains. When the volume goes up, as in action scenes, the mains are called upon to handle more content than the center, but only then. One of the most common mistakes I see with HT systems is very large mains used with very small centers. A 4:3 size ratio of mains to center is reasonable, a 2:1 ratio is not.
            Extremely valuable. Thank you, Yoda.
            My Studio Music Production Gear: http://equipboard.com/spaker
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            • #24
              Would it be worth making suggestions with the ND20FA-6 in mind, or did you finish putting this together last night using some small woofers you've got on-hand?
              I wasn't sure if you were talking about a different build (like the surrounds) or this center one.

              My bad on suggesting the DC28fs-8 when it's too big. Thought it might be able to squeeze on there since a lot of its size is faceplate that might fit over-top (even it it's a bit too big), but it does have a pretty big rear-end for a tweeter with that second magnet.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	DMA ND20 schem.png Views:	0 Size:	5.5 KB ID:	1458543 Click image for larger version  Name:	DMA ND20 graphs.png Views:	0 Size:	107.2 KB ID:	1458544
              The little ND20fa-6 (it's there...I just forgot to input the name) ends up becoming the limit before the woofers' bass extension, but it only cuts this a couple db short on headroom compared to the previous squiggly lines from earlier.
              My first 2way build

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              • #25
                Yes, experimenting can teach us. Frequently the hard way( expensive) . A little knowledge may be dangerous, but too little is too dangerous, so I strongly second the above suggestions to learn more about what you are trying to do and learn a little about physics. Learn how to use simulation software like Win ISD to see if the drivers can actually produce the needed SPL within their x-max. That way, you have some idea what to experiment with. Leave it to grad students to try and violate the laws of physics. We humble engineers know better.

                Tip: Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this. Simulation gets a bit complicated. Now I am a fan of line arrays as they can greatly reduce floor/ceiling reflections and as PS speakers work to even the sound from front to back of a room. Sideways for a HT looks like quite a challenge. There were some tricks in Speaker Builder on combinations of parallel and series wiring to do some phase shifting that may be appropriate to the bar without fancy DSP.
                I woudl strongly suggest the sealed box version of your mains as highest probability of success.

                FWIW, My HT room/guest room is absolutely terrible as HT. Small. We sit against the wall, doors where the speakers need to be both in front and for rears. Treatments not practical. I am not happy with the imaging, If pure mono-center, it comes from below the screen, as a voice moves to the sides, it raises to the ceiling as my mains are above the doors. So, I have been looking at line arrays as possibly small enough to built into door frames to bring the mains down. Looking into possibly putting them in the doors. Then a center using a combination of curved baffle and all pass filters. Intimidating to me as I only have about 40 years of building speakers. The one thing I know is we have laws of physics, not suggestions.

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                • #26
                  Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this.
                  I've never seen a sound bar that does that. They may exist, I haven't seen every sound bar by any means, but by and large soundbars are a square peg that doesn't fit the round hole of a short, wide speaker that provides wide dispersion on the horizontal plane.
                  www.billfitzmaurice.com
                  www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                  • #27
                    Dude I wish I had your energy....and words per min

                    I'm glad it sounds awesome!

                    When you post in a place like this, you might just be asking a question to fill the smallest knowledge gap in your otherwise expansive understanding of a topic, but you will find that people generally assume the rest is missing as well. It just comes with the territory.

                    No burns or offences intended and personally, I don't mind a little ghetto when needed

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                    • #28
                      Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                      Yes, experimenting can teach us. Frequently the hard way( expensive) . A little knowledge may be dangerous, but too little is too dangerous, so I strongly second the above suggestions to learn more about what you are trying to do and learn a little about physics. Learn how to use simulation software like Win ISD to see if the drivers can actually produce the needed SPL within their x-max. That way, you have some idea what to experiment with. Leave it to grad students to try and violate the laws of physics. We humble engineers know better.
                      Oh. I get it now. This is keyboard warrioring. I don't do that. What I have done is read every word. You might want to do the same before pouring out these delightful retorts.

                      I use WinISD when I design cabinets from the ground up. Not when I retrofit an odd shaped cab with a bunch of series parallel small amp wiring in mono for a playroom.

                      I honestly just wanted to know the frequencies center usually handles and how loud to make the center in relationship to the mains. That is all. But no. We have to pulll out the soapbox and teach "lessons"

                      I really am sorry about the gum and baseball cards, teach. Really I am. Can I go out for the rest of recess now? Please?

                      Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                      Tip: Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this. Simulation gets a bit complicated. Now I am a fan of line arrays as they can greatly reduce floor/ceiling reflections and as PS speakers work to even the sound from front to back of a room. Sideways for a HT looks like quite a challenge. There were some tricks in Speaker Builder on combinations of parallel and series wiring to do some phase shifting that may be appropriate to the bar without fancy DSP.
                      I woudl strongly suggest the sealed box version of your mains as highest probability of success.
                      Yeah. I'll just seal up my MTM's with a transmission line. Great idea.

                      I know the sound will disperse across the plane in the PLAYROOM and bpunce off walls and into other sounds and it will be COMPLETE SONIC CHAOS. Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria! I am sure everyone watching Trolls World Tour will FREAK out and lose control of their bowels when the 42Hz tones hit the windows just right and reflect directly to little Michael's colon and..... boom. The brown note IS real.

                      Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                      FWIW, My HT room/guest room is absolutely terrible as HT. Small. We sit against the wall, doors where the speakers need to be both in front and for rears. Treatments not practical. I am not happy with the imaging, If pure mono-center, it comes from below the screen, as a voice moves to the sides, it raises to the ceiling as my mains are above the doors. So, I have been looking at line arrays as possibly small enough to built into door frames to bring the mains down. Looking into possibly putting them in the doors. Then a center using a combination of curved baffle and all pass filters. Intimidating to me as I only have about 40 years of building speakers. The one thing I know is we have laws of physics, not suggestions.
                      You're ******** me. You have a setup equivalent to the mess I am attempting and you've doled out ten thousand words on how dumb what I am up to it is? Refused to accept I am using old parts up in a kids movie game play room, and acted like I was setting up Barbara Streisands personal home studio monitors? Didn't read/listen? Lectured for two days? And is guilty of the same type of innattention to detail we know better than: the thing he is railing against! My GOD. Are we people or characters in a Felini movie? What IS THIS?

                      I swear. I just wanted power comparisons to the mains and a frequency range. Ballpark even. I would have just said thanks and left. Now I have been part of some sick psychological experiment.

                      AAAAAAaaAAAAaaaAAAHHhhHHH
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                      • #29
                        Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
                        Dude I wish I had your energy....and words per min

                        I'm glad it sounds awesome!

                        When you post in a place like this, you might just be asking a question to fill the smallest knowledge gap in your otherwise expansive understanding of a topic, but you will find that people generally assume the rest is missing as well. It just comes with the territory.

                        No burns or offences intended and personally, I don't mind a little ghetto when needed
                        You do not want my energy. It's a curse. Check timestamps from long posts last night. I wear a FitBit. It tracks my sleep extremely accurately. I get about an hour 45 min on average a night. Not good.

                        I DO understand the nature of this place and places like it. And I DO know that dumb questions come in non stop. I had hoped with some photos and specifics, I wouldn't be the equivalent of the post like this:

                        I got my unkles car sub box and the amp from my grammar school gym. Do I hook the plug from the house into this speaker?



                        I get it. I've seen plenty of those.

                        Also. I have been interacting this way since I used to do it locally on a x286 "IBM clone" with a 2400 baud modem (telephone line). Just text and ANSI type "graphics" Chat. Message boards. Simple games. Local people using their PC to call a local number, usually capping out around 25 users at a time. I've been meeting people from this kind of medium for almost 30 years. I was licking my chops at the arrival of the web, then broadband: signing up for the install the first day it was available in my city. Constantly in online communities. I've seen people do some weird stuff. I've met some very important peope to me as well.

                        What I will never understand is hanging around a place to exemplify any kind of superior knowledge, and create a pseudo us and them situation of those who know and those who they watch struggle to try. How amusing. Perhaps another diatribe textbook style will set this one straight? Let's try. A power move... but behind a keyboard. Alone. It's all so odd, even though I am as old a veteran to this communication as anybody.

                        The presumption. Not reading. The laziness.

                        There really should be a test every few years for internet access. I don't know what would be on it, but it should be exceptionally hard.


                        As far as building stuff that isn't worthy of a showroom..... sheesh. What the hell do you guys do with your cosmetically damaged by mistake stuff that is functional? What do you do when you bought one extrta driver and cant return it? Ever buy the $5 tweeters from MCM? The $9 8" woofers? I did. Why? They kinda suck. Uh huh. But garage radios are basically outside and get stolen. portables get the crap beaten out of them. People who have no idea what good sound is would LOVE it if you made them computer speakers for Christmas (for $17). Ever fill a cart up too much to get free shipping? Grab that clearance item because it will NEVER be that price again? Even though you're aware you have NO PLAN for it at all.

                        Well I do that stuff all the time. I have a varitable store of new old stock stuff of all qualities in my shop covering shelves. I use the "meh" stuff when I make an aunt a kitchen table radio that I know damn well 90% of the audio it will ever play will be AM radio. Or a kid birthday. Or something I won't mind losiing, getting wet, stepping on, or giving away. That is what the cheap stuff is for. We don't all live in museum conditions. It's CRAZY out here.
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                        • #30
                          Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                          I've never seen a sound bar that does that. They may exist, I haven't seen every sound bar by any means, but by and large soundbars are a square peg that doesn't fit the round hole of a short, wide speaker that provides wide dispersion on the horizontal plane.
                          Seriously?

                          Now you're just doing this to be weird.
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