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CENTER Speaker characteristics to aim for?

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  • Spaker
    replied
    Oh. FYI.

    I'm not doing any of that crap I suggested here. I am using that cabinet. Different drivers. Fewer Full Range, Two total tweeters. Total crossover rework. It will be a center. I promise, I will make it sound the way it is supposed to.

    Maybe, if there is a ton more pissing and moaning, I'll post measurements. OR. Anybody who woould like can come over and watch an episode of the Mandalorian in the playroom with me next week. Upstate NY. Bring a coat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
    I've never seen a sound bar that does that. They may exist, I haven't seen every sound bar by any means, but by and large soundbars are a square peg that doesn't fit the round hole of a short, wide speaker that provides wide dispersion on the horizontal plane.
    Seriously?

    Now you're just doing this to be weird.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
    Dude I wish I had your energy....and words per min

    I'm glad it sounds awesome!

    When you post in a place like this, you might just be asking a question to fill the smallest knowledge gap in your otherwise expansive understanding of a topic, but you will find that people generally assume the rest is missing as well. It just comes with the territory.

    No burns or offences intended and personally, I don't mind a little ghetto when needed
    You do not want my energy. It's a curse. Check timestamps from long posts last night. I wear a FitBit. It tracks my sleep extremely accurately. I get about an hour 45 min on average a night. Not good.

    I DO understand the nature of this place and places like it. And I DO know that dumb questions come in non stop. I had hoped with some photos and specifics, I wouldn't be the equivalent of the post like this:

    I got my unkles car sub box and the amp from my grammar school gym. Do I hook the plug from the house into this speaker?



    I get it. I've seen plenty of those.

    Also. I have been interacting this way since I used to do it locally on a x286 "IBM clone" with a 2400 baud modem (telephone line). Just text and ANSI type "graphics" Chat. Message boards. Simple games. Local people using their PC to call a local number, usually capping out around 25 users at a time. I've been meeting people from this kind of medium for almost 30 years. I was licking my chops at the arrival of the web, then broadband: signing up for the install the first day it was available in my city. Constantly in online communities. I've seen people do some weird stuff. I've met some very important peope to me as well.

    What I will never understand is hanging around a place to exemplify any kind of superior knowledge, and create a pseudo us and them situation of those who know and those who they watch struggle to try. How amusing. Perhaps another diatribe textbook style will set this one straight? Let's try. A power move... but behind a keyboard. Alone. It's all so odd, even though I am as old a veteran to this communication as anybody.

    The presumption. Not reading. The laziness.

    There really should be a test every few years for internet access. I don't know what would be on it, but it should be exceptionally hard.


    As far as building stuff that isn't worthy of a showroom..... sheesh. What the hell do you guys do with your cosmetically damaged by mistake stuff that is functional? What do you do when you bought one extrta driver and cant return it? Ever buy the $5 tweeters from MCM? The $9 8" woofers? I did. Why? They kinda suck. Uh huh. But garage radios are basically outside and get stolen. portables get the crap beaten out of them. People who have no idea what good sound is would LOVE it if you made them computer speakers for Christmas (for $17). Ever fill a cart up too much to get free shipping? Grab that clearance item because it will NEVER be that price again? Even though you're aware you have NO PLAN for it at all.

    Well I do that stuff all the time. I have a varitable store of new old stock stuff of all qualities in my shop covering shelves. I use the "meh" stuff when I make an aunt a kitchen table radio that I know damn well 90% of the audio it will ever play will be AM radio. Or a kid birthday. Or something I won't mind losiing, getting wet, stepping on, or giving away. That is what the cheap stuff is for. We don't all live in museum conditions. It's CRAZY out here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spaker
    replied
    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    Yes, experimenting can teach us. Frequently the hard way( expensive) . A little knowledge may be dangerous, but too little is too dangerous, so I strongly second the above suggestions to learn more about what you are trying to do and learn a little about physics. Learn how to use simulation software like Win ISD to see if the drivers can actually produce the needed SPL within their x-max. That way, you have some idea what to experiment with. Leave it to grad students to try and violate the laws of physics. We humble engineers know better.
    Oh. I get it now. This is keyboard warrioring. I don't do that. What I have done is read every word. You might want to do the same before pouring out these delightful retorts.

    I use WinISD when I design cabinets from the ground up. Not when I retrofit an odd shaped cab with a bunch of series parallel small amp wiring in mono for a playroom.

    I honestly just wanted to know the frequencies center usually handles and how loud to make the center in relationship to the mains. That is all. But no. We have to pulll out the soapbox and teach "lessons"

    I really am sorry about the gum and baseball cards, teach. Really I am. Can I go out for the rest of recess now? Please?

    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    Tip: Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this. Simulation gets a bit complicated. Now I am a fan of line arrays as they can greatly reduce floor/ceiling reflections and as PS speakers work to even the sound from front to back of a room. Sideways for a HT looks like quite a challenge. There were some tricks in Speaker Builder on combinations of parallel and series wiring to do some phase shifting that may be appropriate to the bar without fancy DSP.
    I woudl strongly suggest the sealed box version of your mains as highest probability of success.
    Yeah. I'll just seal up my MTM's with a transmission line. Great idea.

    I know the sound will disperse across the plane in the PLAYROOM and bpunce off walls and into other sounds and it will be COMPLETE SONIC CHAOS. Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria! I am sure everyone watching Trolls World Tour will FREAK out and lose control of their bowels when the 42Hz tones hit the windows just right and reflect directly to little Michael's colon and..... boom. The brown note IS real.

    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    FWIW, My HT room/guest room is absolutely terrible as HT. Small. We sit against the wall, doors where the speakers need to be both in front and for rears. Treatments not practical. I am not happy with the imaging, If pure mono-center, it comes from below the screen, as a voice moves to the sides, it raises to the ceiling as my mains are above the doors. So, I have been looking at line arrays as possibly small enough to built into door frames to bring the mains down. Looking into possibly putting them in the doors. Then a center using a combination of curved baffle and all pass filters. Intimidating to me as I only have about 40 years of building speakers. The one thing I know is we have laws of physics, not suggestions.
    You're ******** me. You have a setup equivalent to the mess I am attempting and you've doled out ten thousand words on how dumb what I am up to it is? Refused to accept I am using old parts up in a kids movie game play room, and acted like I was setting up Barbara Streisands personal home studio monitors? Didn't read/listen? Lectured for two days? And is guilty of the same type of innattention to detail we know better than: the thing he is railing against! My GOD. Are we people or characters in a Felini movie? What IS THIS?

    I swear. I just wanted power comparisons to the mains and a frequency range. Ballpark even. I would have just said thanks and left. Now I have been part of some sick psychological experiment.

    AAAAAAaaAAAAaaaAAAHHhhHHH

    Leave a comment:


  • DeZZar
    replied
    Dude I wish I had your energy....and words per min

    I'm glad it sounds awesome!

    When you post in a place like this, you might just be asking a question to fill the smallest knowledge gap in your otherwise expansive understanding of a topic, but you will find that people generally assume the rest is missing as well. It just comes with the territory.

    No burns or offences intended and personally, I don't mind a little ghetto when needed

    Leave a comment:


  • billfitzmaurice
    replied
    Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this.
    I've never seen a sound bar that does that. They may exist, I haven't seen every sound bar by any means, but by and large soundbars are a square peg that doesn't fit the round hole of a short, wide speaker that provides wide dispersion on the horizontal plane.

    Leave a comment:


  • tvrgeek
    replied
    Yes, experimenting can teach us. Frequently the hard way( expensive) . A little knowledge may be dangerous, but too little is too dangerous, so I strongly second the above suggestions to learn more about what you are trying to do and learn a little about physics. Learn how to use simulation software like Win ISD to see if the drivers can actually produce the needed SPL within their x-max. That way, you have some idea what to experiment with. Leave it to grad students to try and violate the laws of physics. We humble engineers know better.

    Tip: Line arrays work to reduce the dispersion in the plane of the array, so an array across the canter will give a tiny sweet spot unless you provide the proper phase shift along the length. Sound bars do this. Simulation gets a bit complicated. Now I am a fan of line arrays as they can greatly reduce floor/ceiling reflections and as PS speakers work to even the sound from front to back of a room. Sideways for a HT looks like quite a challenge. There were some tricks in Speaker Builder on combinations of parallel and series wiring to do some phase shifting that may be appropriate to the bar without fancy DSP.
    I woudl strongly suggest the sealed box version of your mains as highest probability of success.

    FWIW, My HT room/guest room is absolutely terrible as HT. Small. We sit against the wall, doors where the speakers need to be both in front and for rears. Treatments not practical. I am not happy with the imaging, If pure mono-center, it comes from below the screen, as a voice moves to the sides, it raises to the ceiling as my mains are above the doors. So, I have been looking at line arrays as possibly small enough to built into door frames to bring the mains down. Looking into possibly putting them in the doors. Then a center using a combination of curved baffle and all pass filters. Intimidating to me as I only have about 40 years of building speakers. The one thing I know is we have laws of physics, not suggestions.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    replied
    Would it be worth making suggestions with the ND20FA-6 in mind, or did you finish putting this together last night using some small woofers you've got on-hand?
    I wasn't sure if you were talking about a different build (like the surrounds) or this center one.

    My bad on suggesting the DC28fs-8 when it's too big. Thought it might be able to squeeze on there since a lot of its size is faceplate that might fit over-top (even it it's a bit too big), but it does have a pretty big rear-end for a tweeter with that second magnet.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	DMA ND20 schem.png Views:	0 Size:	5.5 KB ID:	1458543 Click image for larger version  Name:	DMA ND20 graphs.png Views:	0 Size:	107.2 KB ID:	1458544
    The little ND20fa-6 (it's there...I just forgot to input the name) ends up becoming the limit before the woofers' bass extension, but it only cuts this a couple db short on headroom compared to the previous squiggly lines from earlier.

    Leave a comment:


  • LOUT
    commented on 's reply
    It's just a simulation in VituixCAD, and not a super thorough one. Real-world measurements would be a lot more accurate (and more useful), but the sim may still be a nice place to start feeling out if something might or might not work.

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I am not experimenting. I am not stumbling along picking up little pieces of knowlege to incorperate into my next experiments. And I have bneen doing this for a LONG *** time. Sorry I can't spend time sitting here talking about builds when I have the saw running. Note: it's 3:15AM, the only time I can waste on this. I came here for advice. Simple facts that.... nevermind. The only thing that weird about this is the shape and position of the center speaker. I bailed on making a soundbar but had an idea for a super wide center that used many small drivers in an array. Dumb idea I guess because half you guys think my house should be burned down with my kids sleeping inside. I came here to see if somebody would quickly say "run some full range in serries as loud as the mains. Add a tweeter and cross that over at 6k." That is all I wanted to know. Every center I have ever built had a very different design with very different size speakers. But I can get the "center" sound out of one of these.

    The sanctimonious horseshit for not having this **** down cold from some of you is BRUTAL. Who gives a damn what anyone else is building for the sole purpose of telling them a) what they are doing wrong, b) how they would do it, c) what needs to be purchased, and d) a totally different solution that costs a fortune, neglecting anything already done.

    It's the same all over the internet. Membership boards with the regulars who check new posts all day, waiting to slap down someone looking for random advice and tell them how ignorant they are for even asking.

    Experimenting. Pfft.

    I created a solution. The dry fit sounded amazing. I've never heard anything like it in a center. I tried to figure out how to give it some natural width.. I wired the extreme left and extreme right to the left and right main channels to enhance that audio sweep from side to side. I may use the first two on each side for the main left and right again. As for the rest. I put a filter on them so nothing below 170Hz gets through, and the tweeter takes over at 15500Hz. I adjusted the volume on the outer most speakers to impress depth.

    AND FOR CHRIST SAKES. ITS A FREAKIN KIDS TV PLAY ROOM.


    nobody is listening to symphonies or jazz records back there.

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    They are. You really didn't have to do all this. But thank you.

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/HDMI-Digita...72.m2749.l2648

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    Zero woofers. This IS NOT a soundbar. It is only a center channel that I am putting into the frame of a soundbar I had made and didn't like. There are a couple different kinds of 2.5" full range speakers wired together in series and parallel configurations to keep it to 4 ohms.It is long and thin and mounted under the TV. It hangs off a bracket attached to the TV wall mount. There is a Subwoofer in the corner, the two main speakers are Tritrix MTMTL Left and right of the TV. There are two rear speakers, mounted in the back of the room, high up almost to the ceiling, but pointed down and to the middle of the room.

    So it's a 5.1 in a 16 x 21 room with a flatscreen hung pretty high up on one of the 16' walls. Subwoofer to the right of the TV in the corner. Under TV is a cabinet with video games and stuff. On either side of cabinet are the TriTrix MTMTL pair.

    The trick will be, as I see it now, to filter out anything below, say..... 160 and let the subs handle it. And anything above... maybe, 16kHz, let the tweeters take over. That will be the trick. Once I can get that to happen, I can rest.

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    Oh I know what the articles and books say. What do the builders say?

    If you think I am using one source, or blindly doing as some persuasive writer mentions, you are incorrect.

    I have built and torn down these systems for a lifetime. I am just curious as to what the builders say.

    Some have direct answers to a pretty direct set of questions.
    Some have a complaint about something or other.
    Some assume this is a child, or the mind of one.
    And some are ballsy enough to feign charity, graciously impart their brand of wisdom, and then sit and wait for the endless thanks and praise. Those people... they need help.

  • Spaker
    commented on 's reply
    I know. I have a pair on stands. If you remember, I said this had to be hung under the TV using a soundbar mounting kit that attaches to the TV mount. The Tritrix MTM would not only look ridiculous up there, it would rip the entire setup to the floor.
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