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  • How to lose a customer

    So, I have pushed my sub build within the very tight space and budget limits about as far as I can. I thought I would look at more advanced technology, servo, as my issue is distortion not SPL or extension.
    I heard the old Phillips, heard Velodyne's, and some others years ago and was very unimpressed. Seemed dull as far as transient response.

    I know Rythmik Audio has a decent review and rep. They have been around quite a while so, someone must like them. Their WEB goes on and on about how great their technology is, but no specs to back any of it up. So I sent them an e-mail. What I got back was griping about other company advertisements, total BS on the capabilities of servo to limit range, and no data. Yea, I know a little about servo as I dealt with it as a technician for 20 years.

    So, sorry if they make a great product. I'll never know as they lost me as a potential customer. Hypex amps on their plates, might be very good. Pretty hefty looking drivers, don't know. Not likely to.

    I sent them what I thought of their response. If they decide to be suppurative, I'll let everyone know. Just maybe they have one condescending jerk answering inquiries and the company management does care. Maybe not. Second rule of business is make one customer happy and they tell someone. Make one unhappy, and they tell the world. (First rule is to take your worst attribute and advertise it)

    So they go in my list of companies, most of whom I know make very good products, like SMSL and Topping, for their disrespectful support of customers and potential customers. I wish I had the wherewithal to buy from more of the companies who have been suppurative. Bought Schiit over JDS, though it was a tossup. Chickened out and bought another Parasound over a March amp. Excellent support from Anthem on a 10 year old product, probably delaying me from buying a newer one. ( New Genesis ARC software) I have even had excellent responses from Chinese e-bay resellers, some have no clue what they were selling but went to their supplier and were able to answer the question. Even most excellent responses on freeware or very low cost applications almost too many to recognize. ( Yes, PE has been quite responsive to a couple of issues and inquiries)

  • #2
    Hopefully it's just a bad apple. Things like that can seriously impact a company, I hope management gets a clue.
    Francis

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    • #3
      One thing you can't assume is that designs are done in house. Most are not. It's far less expensive for mid size companies to have their designs done by independent designers than it is to have their own R&D department. This being the case they might not have data to provide. On more than a few occasions when I've done a design for a company I've offered them the complete data set only to have them say no thanks. Their usual reasoning is that their customers buy based on looks and watts and don't understand data anyway. By and large the people I've dealt with at these companies, ranging from marketing department ad copy writers to CEOs, don't understand the data either. Just like their customers what they're concerned with is looks and watts, and of course profit margin.
      www.billfitzmaurice.com
      www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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      • #4
        Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
        One thing you can't assume is that designs are done in house. Most are not. It's far less expensive for mid size companies to have their designs done by independent designers than it is to have their own R&D department. This being the case they might not have data to provide. On more than a few occasions when I've done a design for a company I've offered them the complete data set only to have them say no thanks. Their usual reasoning is that their customers buy based on looks and watts and don't understand data anyway. By and large the people I've dealt with at these companies, ranging from marketing department ad copy writers to CEOs, don't understand the data either. Just like their customers what they're concerned with is looks and watts, and of course profit margin.
        Yeah, whenever an engineer buys a consumer product, the flat rock gets turned over. Marketing is all, performance is meh.
        Francis

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        • #5
          IIRC, one audio forum does not allow any discussion of Rythmik Audio. A fanboi thing maybe.

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          • #6
            Made me check out their site. They're marketing "servo" plate amps but clearly don't know what that should mean. There is no "servo" system without feedback from the driver itself making it into the amplifier to actually control the cone movement. You can't do that with an off the shelf Hypex module. They look like good amps, but they're not any different than any other amp.
            Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
            Wogg Music
            Published projects: PPA100 Bass Guitar Amp, ISO El-Cheapo Sub, Indy 8 2.1 powered sub, MicroSat, SuperNova Minimus

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wogg View Post
              Made me check out their site. They're marketing "servo" plate amps but clearly don't know what that should mean. There is no "servo" system without feedback from the driver itself making it into the amplifier to actually control the cone movement. You can't do that with an off the shelf Hypex module. They look like good amps, but they're not any different than any other amp.
              True, the Hypex amps are very nice, but not equipped for servo duty. That may be why discussion isn't allowed
              Francis

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              • #8
                As an analog geek, a servo woofer sounds like fun, but I have to wonder if it really achieves much considering how good today's drivers have become. Maybe they can use a cheapo driver and compensate it with servo magic (assuming there really is a servo in there, of course).
                Francis

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                • #9
                  Click image for larger version

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fpitas View Post
                    a servo woofer sounds like fun, but I have to wonder if it really achieves much considering how good today's drivers have become..
                    That's why Tom Danley doesn't do servo drive anymore. Besides, Rythmik Audio aren't servo drive. A feedback loop servo drive does not make.

                    www.billfitzmaurice.com
                    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                      That's why Tom Danley doesn't do servo drive anymore. Besides, Rythmik Audio aren't servo drive. A feedback loop servo drive does not make.
                      That would explain why the designer refuses to discuss it. I've known enough engineers to say that's darned unusual
                      Francis

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by djg View Post
                        Click image for larger version

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                        LMAO

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wogg View Post
                          Made me check out their site. They're marketing "servo" plate amps but clearly don't know what that should mean. There is no "servo" system without feedback from the driver itself making it into the amplifier to actually control the cone movement. You can't do that with an off the shelf Hypex module. They look like good amps, but they're not any different than any other amp.
                          Actually incorrect as far as I can tell. Their drivers have a sense coil. A feedback loop is a servo if that is all they are doing. Not a very good one, but it does meet the definition of servo:
                          "device that uses error-sensing negative feedback to correct the action of a mechanism" All it takes to make an amp into a servo amp is an out of phase signal and a resistor. Crudely.

                          From there, control theory gets very complicated and the math is horrendous. Do you make a system unstable and reign it in, or make it super stable and push it to spec. How do you approach limits, compression or hard stop? Like all good consultants, I provide the absolute last word on that: " It depends" A more comprehensive design would do analysis of the error and derive a correction to match some determined transfer function.

                          I would agree, from about 50 Hz up, one can design a very low distortion system, but below that, it gets difficult and very big to do so. It is questionable if it is necessary of course. My target of 1% @ 80 dB, 30 Hz would require about 4 of the 10 inch drivers I am using. I have space for two. It was an arbitrary target not backed by any critical subjective listening. I suspect 3% to be more realistic and lower Q probably more audible. A pair of 12's can about do that . I am cycling back to my earlier preference for critical Q. In any case, going from 15% to 3.5 @ 30 was a step in the right direction.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fpitas View Post
                            That would explain why the designer refuses to discuss it.
                            You can't discuss what you don't understand. Emails of that sort tend to get answered by a customer service rep working off a standard script.

                            www.billfitzmaurice.com
                            www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

                              Actually incorrect as far as I can tell. Their drivers have a sense coil. A feedback loop is a servo if that is all they are doing. Not a very good one, but it does meet the definition of servo:
                              "device that uses error-sensing negative feedback to correct the action of a mechanism" All it takes to make an amp into a servo amp is an out of phase signal and a resistor. Crudely.

                              From there, control theory gets very complicated and the math is horrendous. Do you make a system unstable and reign it in, or make it super stable and push it to spec. How do you approach limits, compression or hard stop? Like all good consultants, I provide the absolute last word on that: " It depends" A more comprehensive design would do analysis of the error and derive a correction to match some determined transfer function.

                              I would agree, from about 50 Hz up, one can design a very low distortion system, but below that, it gets difficult and very big to do so. It is questionable if it is necessary of course. My target of 1% @ 80 dB, 30 Hz would require about 4 of the 10 inch drivers I am using. I have space for two. It was an arbitrary target not backed by any critical subjective listening. I suspect 3% to be more realistic and lower Q probably more audible. A pair of 12's can about do that . I am cycling back to my earlier preference for critical Q. In any case, going from 15% to 3.5 @ 30 was a step in the right direction.
                              You missed what I was looking at.... they're selling plate amplifiers marketed as "servo"... without the driver... hence no sense coil.... therefore <> servo.

                              I've though about using a DVC woofer with the second coil into the amplifier design for some servo control. I figured it would work rather poorly. First off, the mutual inductance makes the second coil as much of a transformer as a coil motion generator, so a good portion of the signal will be based on the input signal directly rather than cone motion. With the potential feedback at least partially disconnected from cone motion the effectiveness of the system would be marginal at best. The dedicated accelerometer method would be much better at actually controlling the cone.
                              Electronics engineer, woofer enthusiast, and musician.
                              Wogg Music
                              Published projects: PPA100 Bass Guitar Amp, ISO El-Cheapo Sub, Indy 8 2.1 powered sub, MicroSat, SuperNova Minimus

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