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  • #16
    Here ya go:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKYGoIoukg

    Comment


    • #17
      And to run your blade higher rather than just above the workpiece. Higher creates downforce at the workpiece, whereas lower creates front-force. The front-force aids in causing the lift to initiate kickback.

      I still have my fingers! Respect the saw.
      Wolf
      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

      *InDIYana event website*

      Photobucket pages:
      https://app.photobucket.com/u/wolf_teeth_speaker

      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

      Comment


      • #18
        It is the back tooth that causes lift and kickback. Not the front.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
          It is the back tooth that causes lift and kickback. Not the front.
          I've had more than one piece want to ride up the front of the blade regardless of it's opposite spin direction. I see what Wolf is talking about here and I agree with a higher blade - unless I am cutting something fairly narrow between the fence and blade.
          Your results may vary.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Wolf View Post
            And to run your blade higher rather than just above the workpiece. Higher creates downforce at the workpiece, whereas lower creates front-force. The front-force aids in causing the lift to initiate kickback.
            Originally posted by mattp View Post
            I've had more than one piece want to ride up the front of the blade regardless of it's opposite spin direction. I see what Wolf is talking about here and I agree with a higher blade - unless I am cutting something fairly narrow between the fence and blade.
            +1.
            Yes, as I was Googling yesterday and today one of the safety recommendations for a table saw I ran across was to raise the blade exactly as you guys are suggesting, which is counter to what many people (like me) believe/take as conventional wisdom.

            Comment


            • #21
              Your fingers and hands. Set your blade as you wish. The only time I ever had work ride up on a TS blade was trying a too thin warped sheet that had no business being on the saw in the first place. In other words, stupidity. Maybe a dull blade. Miss-aligned fence is common. If you have to lift the sheet edge to get it to stay flat. just don't do it! Using universal do-everything blades could be your problem. Universal blades, even Forrest or Ridge, cut everything universally poorly and require more power. The right blade is also a safety feature. I fell for the advertising and reviews until I had some issues. Even my underpowered contractor saw can rip 3 inch oak like butter with the correct rip blade and my 80 tooth can make a better glue line than my jointer. I had a "plywood" blade with the gullets so small it could not clear the sawdust unless set high. Dangerous blade. You can choke the gullets if you set to the "just barely through" Half a gullet will clear. Not half a tooth, half a gullet. I want a 3 HP cabinet saw for better dust collection and well, even my best rip blade goes slow with 2 inch Purpleheart.

              So, don't lower and adjust your BS guides for every cut. Put your thumb behind your work to push it though. Don't set up full support for the outfeed so you are trying to support your work at the finish. I have been in even a professional shop and there was no push stick in sight of their band saw. I even saw a "professional" at the woodworking show doing re-saw and pushing the end of a too thin slab past the blade. Can't fix stupid. Sorry if you feel insulted. I mean no harm. Quite the contrary. Be thankful you can still count to 10 on your fingers. A lot of woodworkers can't.

              The EU has gone as far as banning dado blades as too dangerous even for professionals. ( short arbor to enforce it) At least we only require riving knives.

              How many here don't wear respirators, have a dust collector with HEPA filter and an ambient air filter at least MERV 13? How many don't wear their mask doing cleanup? Well, when you get a little older, you won't be able to hear the tweeters from the hiss of your oxygen tank and your wheezing. Sawdust kills. MDF is almost the worst. ( some exotic woods are actually toxic) My drill press I bought from an estate sale from a woodworker who put in the dust collector only after emphysema. Do you clean up with a shop vac, or one with a HEPA filter? Saws just cut off fingers. Dust kills you. It just takes longer.

              You can GOOGLE and find video's that claim the earth if flat. I offered a reliable set.

              Comment


              • djg
                djg commented
                Editing a comment
                Awesome rant. Big black market for EU dado blades?

                When dado blades are outlawed, only outlaws wil have dado blades.

                Dado blade "buyback"?
                Last edited by djg; 01-13-2021, 03:02 PM.

              • Blenton
                Blenton commented
                Editing a comment
                Amen djg. Might as well outlaw thinking. Maybe they would offer an education "buyback"...

            • #22
              Also killed the export of otherwise very good machinery. It is not the blade it's self. The arbors are made short so you can't fit one. Of course, that means everyone will just make multiple passes with a flat bottom rip blade. Worse results, no safer. There have been inquiries in the woodworker forums to have arbors for US saws sent over. For those who prefer routers, they don't come in shim-sizes which means multiple passes and iffy-fit.

              I have concluded my upgrade will be the Harvey 300 saw and with the money I don't spend on a PCS, I will upgrade my Jet dust collector the Harvey 700 as it will fit under my outfeed table and require only a couple feet of ductwork rather than the overhead kluge I have now. Upgrading to proper DC ductwork was going to cost almost $800. That I will spend on a DeWalt planer so I can finally scrap my old Delta lunchbox.


              The Stumpy Nubbs video on blade height is interesting. He agrees with really thin sheets, a higher blade. I find it only needed if it is something I should use my track saw for anyway. I will continue with my half-gullet as it can rip 3 inch oak without breathing hard. Lower to half tooth, it wil burn. Raise it, well that takes a 12 inch saw now doesn't it?

              Comment


              • #23
                Originally posted by a4eaudio View Post

                I have researched some of this before because I am trying to build my own table saw, but spent a few hours yesterday and today doing more. It seems people can be as opinionated on woodworking tools as they are tweeters. Some findings:
                • Nothing conclusive on whether band saws or table saws cause more injuries. I did find anecdotes from ER doctors that they see more patients due to band saws. My guess is that there may be more injuries from band saws, but those are all going to be fingers getting cut (maybe even cut off) whereas I can imagine more significant injures resulting from a table saw operated unsafely.
                • Injuries from power tools have been increasing quite a bit over the last several years and this is completely due to DIYers. Injuries among professional woodworkers/carpenters have remained steady.
                • A big danger from tables saw is kickback, which is not going to be relevant for a band saw. Not only can you get struck by an object, the kickback can cause your hand to go into the blade (if there is no guard). However, to Tom's point above, there are many things you can do to ensure safer operation of the table saw whereas your fingers are always going to be pretty close to that band saw blade.
                  • Riving knife
                  • Blade guard
                  • Push sticks
                  • Cross-cut sled...
                  • The other thing I found was about the table saw fence after watching some YouTube videos. In Europe it is very common to have a fence that stops near the blade whereas in the US most fences span the entire depth of the table saw. The shorter fence allows the wood to move away from the blade once it has been cut and can reduce the chance of kickback. I found this pretty interesting in that if I just bought off the shelf products from big-box home improvement stores I don't know that I would have ever seen one of these fences. (I just googled to try to find a good pic and hardly anything came up, but here is an interesting article www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/table-saw-safety-why-the-british-think-were-crazy/ )
                IMO, you missed the most important bullet item for avoiding kickback and increasing table saw safety (at least, from the machine's perspective; human error and stupidity always reign supreme) and that is:

                Properly setting up and tuning your table saw and fence.

                How do you set up and tune a table saw you ask? And why is that important? Well, riving knives are certainly number two, IMO, but don't matter much for sheet goods. With hardwood that has inherent stresses and forces trying to push and pull the grain all over the place, when ripping a length of hardwood you can often watch the split halves wander towards or away from each other. If they wander towards each other, they are trying to close the gap created by the kerf of the blade, eventually pinching it on top of the blade. This usually causes the blade to either stall or pitch the board over top of the blade and in to the users face.

                Anyways, having a fence and miter slot that aren't parallel to the blade can cause similar issues, which is why setup and tuning are so important for safety. This is also why I would respectfully disagree with Bill's stance on cheap saws; machining and assembly of cheap saws rarely lend themselves to accurate and solid trunions, miter slots, fences, etc. And I abhor cheap tools - not out snobbery, but for the same reason many here dislike many budget drivers. They have their place, but not in critical or "precision" listening. Same for tools except most cheap drivers don't try to maim or kill you if you don't give them respect. But I digress.

                If your fence or miter slot aren't parallel to the blade, it will constantly push the workpiece towards or away from the blade; both are bad. If leading edge of the cut is pushed in to the blade as it passes the blade, it will cause burning on the workpiece but, more importantly, will require increased effort from the operator to complete the cut. Pushing hard on the workpiece is a bad idea when you are in a position that could possibly lead to falling in to the blade or sending a limb through the blade if your hand were to slip off the workpiece. Similarly, if the workpiece is allowed to wander away from the fence as it passes the blade, it is no longer supported and the trajectory of the workpiece could easily be disrupted. Most people (myself included) don't have arms long enough to push an 8 foot workpiece through the saw with one swipe. Nor they they (or I) have the fine motor controls to exert a precisely consistent force on the workpiece as it passes the blade. If the workpiece isn't supported, it can easily wander back and forth, bouncing off the fence and back in to the saw blade causing a kick back. This is especially common when making crosscuts with a miter slot. Even with a miter sled, if miter slots aren't square to the blade, it can cause issues.

                I don't always buy top of the line tools, but I saw away from the garbage pail. Cheap saws, in particular, do little to inspire confidence. Bushings and bearings wear prematurely, table tops are rarely flat and coplanar, motors and rotating assemblies aren't hardly balanced, and frames don't often support tool and workpiece adequately. Fences are usually even worse and are neither precise nor accurate. (Bill, I do agree with spending good money on a fence as you do). Now, does it cost $3500 to get a good table saw? No. But that $3500 can be money well spent and well worth it, IMO. I'm also more willing to invest in good tools than most people. I've had a lot of cheap tools; very few of them don't end up in the trash. Most I won't even sell - I literally throw them away to save some poor sucker the hassle.

                And it's not nearly what I could spend on my vehicles...

                Comment


                • a4eaudio
                  a4eaudio commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Excellent points!!

                • Blenton
                  Blenton commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks. Wow, I just reread that. I sound like a shop teacher yelling at middle schoolers :/ Well, even I come off a little off kilter I meant what I said. Trying to be helpful for those who like to tinker and like their digits and limbs to stay attached to their bodies. Kickbacks suck. Being afraid of tools cuz they really are shoddy and dangerous is almost just as bad. Short story: had a customer once setup with a Harbor Freight miter saw on a job with a walk out basement on the side of hill in the middle of a nice, cold, snowy winter day.. Needed to make three cuts and he offered to let me use his saw. I made one cut, through away the work piece, checked to make sure I wasn't missing any limbs and didn't have any wood embedded in myself, and trugged through several feet of snow and made several trips to get my own tools just to make there cuts. Don't think I've ever been so worried about using a tool before. Dare I say it was legitimately scary.

              • #24
                Originally posted by djg View Post
                LOL - in the comments "You must listen to Primus" LOL

                But that was terrifying

                Comment


                • #25
                  Originally posted by dwigle View Post

                  I have never seen the Harvey brand, those 2 and 3hp tablesaws for $1k and $1.5k look very nice.
                  The Harvey's are made by the same factory (or they are the factory rather) that make Laguna, Grizzly, Craftex, and more. They are on my list for my table saw upgrade.

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    Obviously a table saw needs to be set up correctly with the fence being sturdy, and perpendicular to the saw blade, but I think a lot of our perceptions on how a particular piece of equipment responds to use depends on how we use it, and what we use it for. If I only cut squared up 3/4" MDF or particle board with no waviness to it on my table saw, I will rarely have any issues as long as I take my time and be careful.

                    On the other hand, if cutting thicker slabs of hardwood is what you usually do, the margins for error with that are thinner and things have to be really dialed in nearly perfectly to safely do that type of operation.

                    One of my least favorite things to do is rip a piece of 2x4 or 2x6 on the table saw. Similar to what Blenton mentioned, as I pass the piece through, it always wants to close up and grip the blade. I've had to stop the saw once it was so bad. The board was straight too, there was just some internal pressure that caused it to squeeze as I opened it up, I have a RIGID with decent power too.

                    Anyway, It would be great to always be able to buy the best equipment, but I think there is a place for varying levels of equipment quality, but you have to size the equipment to the anticipated job.

                    Junk is junk, and yeah, toss it before someone gets hurt... but my father for instance has a pretty cheap, sheet metal top table saw fairly low on power. He put a new wood top on it and spent some time getting the carriage and blade squared up and fashioned his own fence to it. It's perfectly perpendicular and it actually cuts like a champ with a good quality blade. He doesn't cut 2" slabs of hardwood all day, but does some hardwood planks and lots of other stuff with it and it works fine for what he needs.

                    Sizing the quality of the tool to the intended job is important.

                    TomZ
                    Zarbo Audio Projects Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEZ...aFQSTl6NdOwgxQ * 320-641 Amp Review Youtube: https://youtu.be/ugjfcI5p6m0 *Veneering curves, seams, using heat-lock iron on method *Trimming veneer & tips *Curved Sides glue-up video
                    *Part 2 *Gluing multiple curved laminations of HDF

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      Originally posted by scottvalentin View Post

                      The Harvey's are made by the same factory (or they are the factory rather) that make Laguna, Grizzly, Craftex, and more. They are on my list for my table saw upgrade.
                      A member of a woodworking forum toured the Chinese plants and provided a lot of feedback.
                      Yes, they are one of about four actual manufactures. They have made some of the above brands at some times, including Powermatic and at least one SawStop. Who builds what model for whom I am told is bid across them over a game of Mahjong twice a year. Seems like a folk tale, but then again, how China does business is not always the same as how we do it in the West. I am very happy with my 17 inch band saw. Tough between Laguna, Rikon, and Harvey. If I could have had room for a 20 inch I think the RIkon pro was the winner. It came down to the guides. Harvey easiest by far.

                      Some tools are "spec" design, some are designed for the brand. As I understand, only two iron foundries. How good the iron is is again, what is paid for and how long it is left in the yard to relax before machine work. Or for a Harbor Freight, if they pay to knock the sand out before painting.

                      Support? Well, pick your brand, pick your horror story. My BS came missing a coupled nylon hinge washers Called them up. Washers came in a couple days. I have heard, yes unverified, stories of support issues going years with other brands and of course Delta just does not provide support at all. Gad I hope they get a dope slap and can return to the preferred reliable brand they once were.

                      I worked for a company that got said dope slap. It's called "chapter 11" Changed the management attitude 100% and allowed us in the trenches to do our job. ( I was corrective action coordinator) Our quality and reliability skyrocketed.

                      Decided to see how far I can push dust collection on my Ridged. I already had a back box covering the motor and an enclosed base. Measured .4 M/s flow through the finger hole in my throat plate. Used spray foam to seal to the top. Used two brush door sweeps to seal the front crank. Added flexible door sweeps to seal my outfeed to the rear rail allowing the fence to still slide. Carved out of the spray foam for the angle lock knob movement. Now up to 4.2 M/s. I want to see if I can increase the 2.5 inch hose to the blade shroud to a 4 inch. I can improve the flow at the hose coupling by a little as it is HVAC duct and flex, both not optimal. I'll cut up some scrap MDF tomorrow and see if it actually helped. I have one more trick up my sleeve, but have not found the right bower for it. The trick is to get the dust out of the gullet before it goes back out of the cabinet.

                      Maybe it can actually be good enough as the saw is marginally big and powerful enough (only with best dedicated blades) , but the weight and lower vibration along with a real moving riving knifes makes the 300 still top of my list. I wish the new Delta did not have such terrible quality reviews. Griz's seem to be loved if you get a good one, but some don't. Same with Jet. Powermatic seems overpriced, but darn a nice bit of kit. F3 looks nice, but very short between front edge and the blade. Strange. The F1 and F2 are lightweight aluminum jobs and also sold by Baleigh and others. For the size down, the Jet and Powermatic seem to be favored The big Baleigh is the same as Powermatic. You can download the parts diagrams and see which trunnion is in what saw. Two basic designs, Pivot or ways for height. Not sure of any advantage.

                      But their new Gryo dust collectors still look to be a real advancement. For one thing, a sensor and alarm for when the filters needing cleaning. I forgot for a week on my Jet and it blew the bag filling the entire building with dust in seconds. If I don't swap it, I will put a pressure alarm on it.

                      That is about a years worth of research on top of 50 years of woodworking experience. I stand by my experience that says a woodworking machine can't be too big and too heavy. The more cast iron, the better. I will not use a bench-top table saw. I would use a site-saw for rough trim maybe. Contractor size gets to be a reliable tool but unsafe as far as dust collection. A 3 HP cabinet is the first step of a "real" saw. Real shops usually run 5 HP or more, three phase. Many use sliding tables until they have upgraded to CNC flying blade machines. Any saw without a riving knife should be scrapped unless a big production job with auto feed.

                      Comment


                      • #28
                        Example of "expert" who is trying to get hurt ion his band saw
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njsD5W6fcI0

                        The topic of glue comes up often, epically for MDF. Check out Wood by Wright glue test. A lot of surprises.

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          Don't forget about blade run-out and arbor run-out after you have set your table and fence squarely as well.

                          Blades are notorious for being wobbly --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzF-oATzp2Y

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                          • #30
                            Originally posted by djg View Post
                            Today's Tom SAWyer?


                            ;D

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