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  • PWR RYD
    commented on 's reply
    Awww, don't go away mad....

  • djg
    commented on 's reply
    I don't even own a planer.

  • tvrgeek
    replied
    Oh well. Tried to be helpful and all I get is crap.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1100xxben
    replied
    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    ...Please folks, this was intended as helpful advice. I am not trying to gore your pig....
    I think everyone here loves helpful advice and FACTUAL DATA. What you have provided is data you found on the internet (which you have not provided reference) from an un-verifiable source. Several of us did not believe your claims and questioned you to verify, but you continued to provide data from another source. Blenton actually provided data, from his own test, that has shown your information to be inaccurate.

    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    ...and supplied a chart that gives guidance on width, cut depth, and duty cycle so it remains within the normal load for the branch, that would be responsible. It could be well that a 10 inch oak board should not be cut more than 1/32 inch. I have no problem with that. ( about what I normally cut anyway) BUT THEY SHOULD SAY SO....
    Oh, you mean like the plate they put right on the front of the tool? Yeah... they were responsible and did that. It even has a little needle to indicate the depth of cut before the infeed rollers grab a hold, so you can adjust the height and not exceed the recommended work load for the tool. So, please do not talk about what DeWalt should have done with a tool when you obviously have never used the tool yourself.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1100xxben
    replied
    Originally posted by Blenton View Post
    Again, I certainly disagree that it is fraudulent. That is such a misused term in our society today, rampant with lawsuits from yahoo’s that put hot coffee betwixt their legs and sue for damages from being scalded. I doubt Dewalt is trying to defraud the end user by... wait, how are they defrauding us? By making a powerful machine that doesn’t poohpooh the bed if it bounces past 14.9 amps???

    Now, just for fun, I stuck a KillAWatt meter on my 735 and ran a few boards through it to see what it’s actually drawing. The machine is almost 10 years old and has had zero parts replaced save the blades, which are reasonably sharp but not new. And I don’t recall the last time the tables were cleaned and waxed.. On a cold machine in a cold shop, it pulls 9.9 amps and settles to 9.2 amps between boards when warmed up a bit. Sounds about right.

    I grabbed some beech off the rack fresh from the lumber yard, which is reasonably hard - about middle of the pack for what most might send through the machine. Both sides are rough (not rough hewn, but rough from the drying process) and boards varying from 5-10” in width. All was 9’ lumber.

    First pass with a normal cut (about 1/16”) and boards under 6” spiked up to 16 amps momentarily, then back down to around 14.5. Wider boards and I hit 17.3 on the 10” wide boards, then back around 15 +-.3 amps.

    Second and third passes with the board flipped over and riding on the freshly planed board surface, current spikes were all below 16 amps with nominal current drawer between 12 and 14.3 amps.

    I also wanted to see what a full 1/8” cut would do so I grabbed a piece of ash that was also rough from the lumber yard and sent it on through at 1/8” depth of cut. Max amp draw was 19.1 amps on one side, 17.5 on the other. Both dropped by about 3 amps or more once the cutter head came back up to speed.

    Last I checked, 19 was less than 20. Dewalts claims of a 15 amp planar that should be used on a 20 amp circuit appear pretty accurate to me. Sounds like a case of user error instead of fraudulent business practices. And maybe a little too much YouTube infallibility syndrome.
    THANK YOU for posting this! I was literally just searching around my shop this morning, trying to find my KillAWatt meter to perform the same type of tests on mine (I was unsuccessful in finding my meter). I did not believe the previous claims that the unit draws 15 A at idle and 30 A during PROPER use. Unfortunately, I was unable to find my meter, but your test shows how incorrect the previous claims are. I agree that there is no "fraud" or mis-information here at all on DeWalts behalf.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blenton
    replied
    Again, I certainly disagree that it is fraudulent. That is such a misused term in our society today, rampant with lawsuits from yahoo’s that put hot coffee betwixt their legs and sue for damages from being scalded. I doubt Dewalt is trying to defraud the end user by... wait, how are they defrauding us? By making a powerful machine that doesn’t poohpooh the bed if it bounces past 14.9 amps???

    Now, just for fun, I stuck a KillAWatt meter on my 735 and ran a few boards through it to see what it’s actually drawing. The machine is almost 10 years old and has had zero parts replaced save the blades, which are reasonably sharp but not new. And I don’t recall the last time the tables were cleaned and waxed.. On a cold machine in a cold shop, it pulls 9.9 amps and settles to 9.2 amps between boards when warmed up a bit. Sounds about right.

    I grabbed some beech off the rack fresh from the lumber yard, which is reasonably hard - about middle of the pack for what most might send through the machine. Both sides are rough (not rough hewn, but rough from the drying process) and boards varying from 5-10” in width. All was 9’ lumber.

    First pass with a normal cut (about 1/16”) and boards under 6” spiked up to 16 amps momentarily, then back down to around 14.5. Wider boards and I hit 17.3 on the 10” wide boards, then back around 15 +-.3 amps.

    Second and third passes with the board flipped over and riding on the freshly planed board surface, current spikes were all below 16 amps with nominal current drawer between 12 and 14.3 amps.

    I also wanted to see what a full 1/8” cut would do so I grabbed a piece of ash that was also rough from the lumber yard and sent it on through at 1/8” depth of cut. Max amp draw was 19.1 amps on one side, 17.5 on the other. Both dropped by about 3 amps or more once the cutter head came back up to speed.

    Last I checked, 19 was less than 20. Dewalts claims of a 15 amp planar that should be used on a 20 amp circuit appear pretty accurate to me. Sounds like a case of user error instead of fraudulent business practices. And maybe a little too much YouTube infallibility syndrome.

    Leave a comment:


  • tvrgeek
    replied
    Gad, just relaying some factual information sure has rattled some cages. Please folks, this was intended as helpful advice. I am not trying to gore your pig.

    Never have I said the 735 is not a great machine. I may still buy one, and may even buy a Lux helical cutter. ( a little nicer than the Byrd) But I will be running a 30A branch. I understand that continuous load should not exceed the base rating of the branch so with accurate information, I can install an appropriate branch. Some may not understand that, but I have a electrical background. Everyone does not. I also know breakers are designed to trip at 150% continuous only after several minutes, which is why " I have run..." is how you get away with it. I have asked around on wood working forums, and tripping breakers IS common.

    That DeWalt advertises this unit as 15A is, well fraudulent. Fraudulent as it fails the basic commerce laws on implied warrantee in it is not suitable for the use as advertised. If they shipped it with a 5-20 plug and supplied a chart that gives guidance on width, cut depth, and duty cycle so it remains within the normal load for the branch, that would be responsible. It could be well that a 10 inch oak board should not be cut more than 1/32 inch. I have no problem with that. ( about what I normally cut anyway) BUT THEY SHOULD SAY SO. I am amazed CSA/UL did not flag the 5-15 plug. DeWalt says 15A, 13 inches, and 1/8 cut is just not true. I suspect it actually takes about a 5 HP machine to do that. In contacting them, they did not deny the current drain.


    Mr. Lee seems to understand the difference between "minimum code" and good design.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blenton
    commented on 's reply
    [Gasps in utter disbelief]

  • Steve Lee
    replied
    I'm gonna blaspheme here and admit that I have run 20 amp breaker circuits to my saws and planer using 10 AWG wire to 20 amp plugs.
    Just cause I wanna keep everything cool.

    I must be a heretic . . .

    Leave a comment:


  • Blenton
    replied
    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post

    There is a gentleman over on Lumber Jocks who did extensive testing. It pulls about 13 with no load. DeWalt advertises it as a 15 A tool. Yet it can pull as much as 27A tested, running 1/16 of a 9 inch oak plank.

    I asked DeWalt about it and they did not deny the current drain, but suggested a really stupid mitigation to use a long 14 gauge power cord to drop the voltage.
    DeWalt says 15A, but use on a 20A circuit, ( A usual expectation for normal de-rating margin) yet it comes with a 5-15 NEMA plug, not a 5-20. I am surprised CSA or UL did not catch that.

    Now, on start up, motors pull a bunch, which is why panel breakers spec is 200% for half a second. The goal is to not overheat the wires and a short surge won't. They expect some amount of overload, I believe it is 150% for a couple of minutes, which is why the 735 does not blow a breaker every time it touches anything if you are running short boards with a delay between them so the bi-metalic cools down.

    If DeWalt put on the correct plug and provided a table to suggest cutting depth ( 1/32 is more common) width and type of wood with a duty cycle, then I would not be calling them out for false advertising.

    Don't get me wrong, it is not a bad machine. Matter of fact, it seems to be the de-facto preference before moving up to big heavy and expensive machines. People pretty universally like them. I may still buy one myself, but I will be running a 30A feed. My argument is DeWalt is basically selling something in violation of implied warrantee, in that it won't do what is normally expected by the specifications/advertising.
    The 735 is a fantastic machine. Like 1100xxben I have also run thousands of board feet of lumber through mine, everything from alder to jatoba. I don't take full depth cuts cuz most of the time that's just silly anyways. Yep, you can stall it out and trip a 15a breaker. Yep, you can stall it out and trip a 20a breaker. I can also trip the breaker on a 220 table saw trying to chuck 8/4 or 12/4 hardwood through it with a dull blade and some excess tension in the board springing half way through a long cut. I've also tripped the breaker on the unit itself. I highly doubt the 735 pulls 15a at idle, for LOADS of reasons (get the pun I threw in there? It was pretty plane to see... ha. ha. ha) One of which being I've run another 4+ amps of gear on the same 15a line at the same time without issue. But I'll throw my KillAWatt on it and see.

    Complaining that the motor can draw more power (and produce more useful work) than a 15a circuit is able to provide is just silly - like complaining that my 100 watt amplifier can actually produce 150 watts if fed a healthy diet of current and voltage. I HATE it when amp manufacturers do that! Gosh dern 90's Orion cheater amps!! They said 25 watts. TWENTY FIVE WATTS PER CHANNEL!!! I only ran 16 gauge wire. Shoulda run 12 gauge...

    Their suggestion to run a 14 gauge extension cord isn't a foolish bandaid to mitigate a "known" problem. It's smart and you should do that any time you plan on running anything over 10 amps. Most cheap extension cords are 16 gauge CCA and can't support the current draw without popping the breaker. The wires in the wall are - or ought to be - at least 14 gauge copper, especially if you are running a 5-20 receptacle. Why stub a restriction in the line with a cheap 16 gauge power suck? I prefer 12 gauge, personally. Fewer nasty harmonics from the motor and all...

    Leave a comment:


  • tvrgeek
    replied
    Originally posted by 1100xxben View Post

    Where did you find that the DeWalt 735 pulls 15A at no load??? I find that very hard to believe. I have one on a 20A circuit and I have run THOUSANDS of linear feet of hardwood through it without ever having a tripped breaker (lots of ash, maple, walnut, oak, poplar, pine, etc). I've even taken too much off before of hard, wide boards to the point where the thing bogged down enough that I had to back off the cut depth in the middle of a pass, but it did not trip the breaker.
    There is a gentleman over on Lumber Jocks who did extensive testing. It pulls about 13 with no load. DeWalt advertises it as a 15 A tool. Yet it can pull as much as 27A tested, running 1/16 of a 9 inch oak plank.

    I asked DeWalt about it and they did not deny the current drain, but suggested a really stupid mitigation to use a long 14 gauge power cord to drop the voltage.
    DeWalt says 15A, but use on a 20A circuit, ( A usual expectation for normal de-rating margin) yet it comes with a 5-15 NEMA plug, not a 5-20. I am surprised CSA or UL did not catch that.
    I also suggested that for a current draw this high, it would be a good feature to be able to jumper it either 110 or 220. Yes, universal motors can be field wired series or parallel My old Sears radial arm did for an example.

    Now, on start up, motors pull a bunch, which is why panel breakers spec is 200% for half a second. The goal is to not overheat the wires and a short surge won't. They expect some amount of overload, I believe it is 150% for a couple of minutes, which is why the 735 does not blow a breaker every time it touches anything if you are running short boards with a delay between them so the bi-metalic cools down.

    If DeWalt put on the correct plug and provided a table to suggest cutting depth ( 1/32 is more common) width and type of wood with a duty cycle, then I would not be calling them out for false advertising.

    His test shows a Shelix head does pull a couple more amps. That is not at all the fault of DeWalt. It was the result of the test. Of course, dull blades will pull more current. Again, not a fault of DeWalt at all. A hint is if you have a good dust collector, pull the fan blade off and it will save you 3A. I stand by my conclusion, being reasonably well versed in the electrical code and having worked product safety margins in industry, it is a 25A machine and should be used on a 30A circuit. Relying on pushing the every limits of a branch breaker is just plain not smart.

    OK, you get away with it. Most do. People jump out of perfectly good airplanes too and usually get away with it. ( I know two who did not) I also got feedback from many woodworkers that they do pop their 20A mains every now and again.

    Don't get me wrong, it is not a bad machine. Matter of fact, it seems to be the de-facto preference before moving up to big heavy and expensive machines. People pretty universally like them. I may still buy one myself, but I will be running a 30A feed. My argument is DeWalt is basically selling something in violation of implied warrantee, in that it won't do what is normally expected by the specifications/advertising. I have also started thinking about keeping my Delta lunch box and put the money down on a drum sander.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1100xxben
    replied
    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
    If the arbor or blade gives more than about 5 thou runout, you have a problem. Both performance and safety. A half decent blade, like even a low end Diablo will be under 2 on a 10 inch. Arbor should be as good. Cheap saws with stamped flange washers are notorious. Get good washers. If your arbor is off, well, get a better saw. More common is a bit of dust on the flange. You can test every blade on your arbor to off-set the runout. Mark the blade and arbor, reposition until minimum. I found I could get about one to two thou. better.

    Additional expense I forgot. Shipment of the larger tools is to curb or dock. Sometimes even lift-gate delivery is more expensive. Just an 18 wheeler. So I will have to rent a fork lift to get the new tools into my shop. ( gravel drive) . Adding a Clear-View cyclone to my Fein vac so I don't spend a fortune on HEPA bags cleaning up. Unless you have experienced the difference between a Fein or Festool vac and a shop vac, you don't know what you are missing. Worth every penny and boy do they coat a lot of them.

    New expense. Turns out the DeWalt 735 planer is rated at 15A/110. No sweat. Except that is when not cutting. It can pull 32A doing 1/16 of a 10 wide oak plank. That is enough to trip a 20A breaker occasionally. So, running a 30A 110 line. I consider a 15A spec for idle to be fraudulent. Glad I found out. I still want one, but will put in a 30A line. They should have put in a 110/220 configurable motor.
    Where did you find that the DeWalt 735 pulls 15A at no load??? I find that very hard to believe. I have one on a 20A circuit and I have run THOUSANDS of linear feet of hardwood through it without ever having a tripped breaker (lots of ash, maple, walnut, oak, poplar, pine, etc). I've even taken too much off before of hard, wide boards to the point where the thing bogged down enough that I had to back off the cut depth in the middle of a pass, but it did not trip the breaker.

    Leave a comment:


  • tvrgeek
    replied
    Use sheet of 2 inch rigid insulation foam board and a track saw in the driveway. You can DIY a track, but extruded ones are better. GOOGLE and get some reviews. Many use any circ saw, some require an expensive plunge saw. Of course, a plunge Festool is fine, if you are filthy rich. I use a cordless 6 1/2 inch Makita circ saw and a strait board. Saw is fine, but I want a real track. ( good blade of course) I can't handle full sheets myself on the TS any more, so knock them to size. A 60 inch track is not too expensive. 100 inch a bit more, but how many speaker cabinets do you need with a side 8 feet long? Precision of square is up to you, not like a TS with a fence to do it for you. Results can be the same.

    Stay on this forum for crossover design, but go to woodworking forums to learn how to build cabinets.

    Leave a comment:


  • kirk78h
    replied
    Has anyone used an MFT table (or similar) with a track saw to cut large panels? The YouTube videos make it look like a fantastic option. Of course the Festool pricing is insane; but doesn't look that hard to duplicate.

    Leave a comment:


  • tvrgeek
    replied
    If the arbor or blade gives more than about 5 thou runout, you have a problem. Both performance and safety. A half decent blade, like even a low end Diablo will be under 2 on a 10 inch. Arbor should be as good. Cheap saws with stamped flange washers are notorious. Get good washers. If your arbor is off, well, get a better saw. More common is a bit of dust on the flange. You can test every blade on your arbor to off-set the runout. Mark the blade and arbor, reposition until minimum. I found I could get about one to two thou. better.

    Additional expense I forgot. Shipment of the larger tools is to curb or dock. Sometimes even lift-gate delivery is more expensive. Just an 18 wheeler. So I will have to rent a fork lift to get the new tools into my shop. ( gravel drive) . Adding a Clear-View cyclone to my Fein vac so I don't spend a fortune on HEPA bags cleaning up. Unless you have experienced the difference between a Fein or Festool vac and a shop vac, you don't know what you are missing. Worth every penny and boy do they coat a lot of them.

    New expense. Turns out the DeWalt 735 planer is rated at 15A/110. No sweat. Except that is when not cutting. It can pull 32A doing 1/16 of a 10 wide oak plank. That is enough to trip a 20A breaker occasionally. So, running a 30A 110 line. I consider a 15A spec for idle to be fraudulent. Glad I found out. I still want one, but will put in a 30A line. They should have put in a 110/220 configurable motor.

    Leave a comment:

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