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  • Capacitor comparisons

    How does the Dayton audio precision caps compare to the Jantzen Z Superior caps and or Z Silver caps? What are the distinctive characteristics between them. Is it worth it to pay that much more for the Jantzen caps?

  • #2
    I personally believe the Jantzen are better. And by better, in my experience, I simply mean they deliver more detail. I cant really tell you 'how' they sound because realistically if any capacitor had a distinct sound it would go straight in the bin. All other subjective language used to describe sound is, well, for magazines and sales pitches.

    I use the dayton stuff for prototyping a crossover as its far more cost effective to hold stock of virtually all possible values. When crossover development is complete I then invest in the best crossover components for the project. I can say without a doubt that the level of transparency and detail available from the Jantzen caps/resistors far exceeds the dayton version of the crossover even when I'm just using standard z-caps. I do tend to use a bypass cap virtually everywhere in the crossover which I also personally believe makes a big difference. I'm currently using Cornell Dubilier 0.01uf caps for bypass.

    To give you a practical example - take a listen to the remastered version (in the highest quality you can get your hands on) of Nick Caves Red Right Hand. Crossover for crossover the difference between one made with dayton caps/coils/resistors and another with Jantzen standard zcaps/coils and resistors (all other parts of the system equal) is the ability to actually hear the recoding booth Nick is standing in and the ambience it creates in the music.

    However I must say that the overall cost of the project is taken into consideration when I put a crossover together - it doesn't make any sense to me to throw really expensive caps on mediocure drivers - so everything needs to be balanced out. On very good drivers - sky's the limit (and the customers wallet)

    I tend to go for the best caps I can for midrange and tweeter sections and drop it back a little for caps in bass sections.

    Comment


    • Unbiasedsound
      Unbiasedsound commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for the advice appreciate it.

  • #3
    Tested the Dayton Precision cap against the Jantzen standard Z cap and its no contest the Standard Z cap sounds way better and the difference's are not subtle. The Dayton sounds closed in and almost dull (analytical) sounding compared to the Jantzens. The Jantzens are very open (holographic) and detailed yet warm smooth and musical. I cant imagine how the Jantzen Z Superior or Silver would sound.

    I agree with everything DeZZar said about the caps, thanks once again you aint steer me wrong.

    My DML panels are now on another level with the Jantzen standard Z caps the sound is just wow. How can a capacitor make a huge change in sound? I remember reading a comment on the Z superior cap where a reviewer said it made a $20.00 tweeter sound like a $50.00 tweeter and I kind of doubted a cap would make such a drastic change but now I dont doubt it anymore.

    From now on all my caps will be Jantzen standard Z, sorry Dayton.

    In the Future I will try the Superior or Sliver Janzten caps.

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    • #4
      As the cap may make a difference in distortion in the range of .001% and a tweeter produces 2 to 5%.
      It would be very rare to find anyone of these golden ears to tell the difference in a true well designed blind test. For that matter, a reason to use film over electrolytic has more to do with long term reliability than distortion. But, it is your money and if you "believe" the go for it. Buy the $50 tweeter first. Second, buy the $100 tweeter. Maybe if a Be or Diamond tweeter, it could be possible to measure the difference in brands.

      Speakers behave based on the laws of physics. Your perception behaves on psychoacoustic belief. I will not say you don't perceive a difference as only you know that, but I will contend it does not exist.

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      • #5
        Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
        Tested the Dayton Precision cap against the Jantzen standard Z cap and its no contest the Standard Z cap sounds way better and the difference's are not subtle. The Dayton sounds closed in and almost dull (analytical) sounding compared to the Jantzens. The Jantzens are very open (holographic) and detailed yet warm smooth and musical. I cant imagine how the Jantzen Z Superior or Silver would sound.

        I agree with everything DeZZar said about the caps, thanks once again you aint steer me wrong.

        My DML panels are now on another level with the Jantzen standard Z caps the sound is just wow. How can a capacitor make a huge change in sound? I remember reading a comment on the Z superior cap where a reviewer said it made a $20.00 tweeter sound like a $50.00 tweeter and I kind of doubted a cap would make such a drastic change but now I dont doubt it anymore.

        From now on all my caps will be Jantzen standard Z, sorry Dayton.

        In the Future I will try the Superior or Sliver Janzten caps.
        I'm not saying there are not differences between types of caps, but if you knew which cap was in the circuit, you were listening with more than just your ears.
        Co-conspirator in the development of the "CR Gnarly Fidelity Reduction Unit" - Registered Trademark, Patent Pending.

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        • #6
          And he is listening to said capacitors with DML panels...
          Craig

          The lowest possible F3 box alignment is not always the best alignment.

          Designing and building speaker projects are like playing with adult Lego Blocks for me.

          Comment


          • #7
            What is a true well designed blind test? What are the world wide standards for this blind test? So capacitor manufacturers prices on certain caps are based on long term reliability? So the main reason alot of DIYers use film caps instead of npe caps in there cross over design is because of longer reliability?



            How does my ears behave based on physics of what one hears? So what I am hearing is all in my mind? If that is the case then everyone buys gear based on a belief and not what one actually hears? If BOTH of us heard a difference would you still say it does not exist even though you've heard a difference as well? I dont get that type of logic.



            Comment


            • #8
              Originally posted by tom_s View Post

              I'm not saying there are not differences between types of caps, but if you knew which cap was in the circuit, you were listening with more than just your ears.
              I am familiar with the cliche but I dont buy it as my eyes arent fooling my ears. lol

              Comment


              • #9
                An effective A-B "blind" test would have caps swapping in (either by computer program, or by a person) in a "random" manner, where the listener would record which cap (they thought) they were hearing, only to have the actual caps revealed "after the fact".

                Comment


                • #10
                  Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
                  An effective A-B "blind" test would have caps swapping in (either by computer program, or by a person) in a "random" manner, where the listener would record which cap (they thought) they were hearing, only to have the actual caps revealed "after the fact".
                  I've been doing A-B bind comparisons since the 90's on many other audio gear. Fast foward to today and many will say that its not a true legit blind test. This is the reason I ask what is the standard double blind test used and accepted world wide by the audio/scientific community? so far no one has given me this standard of blind test.

                  My friend came over today and we did the test with 10 tries each using the same song and we both got 100% correct, even my wife who is not into hi fi got 5 correct only because she refused to sit there and listen to it 5 more times. LOL My wifes terminolgies is BIG and SMALL LOL.....she said the Jantzen caps makes the DML sound like bigger speakers while the Dayton sounds like smaller speakers.

                  The difference between the Dayton precision caps and Jantzen standard Z caps on my DML panels is very significant. The main or first thing we noticed that stood out is the openess or lack of it between the 2 caps this is what usually gave it away as we could tell within the first couple seconds of the song just by the openess and or lack of openess. The jantzens sound more detailed and smoother then the Daytons with a holographic like imaging with larger sound stage.

                  We even did a blind A/B test with the NPE and the Jantzen SZ and although we both got 100% correct it wasnt as easy as the Daytons because they both are open sounding.. NPE sound open but lack separation and detail and can sound a little harsh and grainy. The Jantzen sound very open but with better separation and detail with a holographic like imaging and huge soundstage yet they are smooth and musical.

                  Also I am not saying that the Daytons sound bad its just different sound signature sounding more closed in and analytical or maybe neutral. Jantzens maybe sound colored but colored good, more musical.

                  Plus since the Dayton and Jantzen caps are similar priced I figured there wouldnt be much of a difference but I was wrong. Now I am wondering how much of a difference the Superior and Silver caps will make especially since the price on those is way higher I wonder if its worth it?

                  For me and my DML panels its the Jantzen standard Z caps with the Superior and Silver in the future.


                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by tvrgeek View Post
                    I will not say you don't perceive a difference as only you know that, but I will contend it does not exist.
                    I don't know mate - I'm generally pretty pragmatic about what does and doesn't really make a difference in terms of sound quality and you certainly wont find me telling you one length of copper sounds better than another, but a crossover network taken as a whole assembled with low quality parts vs high quality parts does in my view, produce a dramatically different (superior) and very noticeable result (and no I'm not some simpleton just listening to a 'louder' tweeter).

                    As mentioned in my first post here, the difference comes through in subtleties in the re-production of music, especially over extended listening periods.

                    Its all well and good to propose the notion of blind tests intended to make an objective conclusion based on a subjective audience. At the end of the day people should be able to hear a clear difference but does that mean they should be able to pick one or the other? Not really - because no one has a sonic memory of the perfect re-production of a favorite/familiar song as a reference - so its almost impossible to say that one or the other is closer to a perfect re-production. And low and behold there will be those that prefer the sound of a lesser quality crossover - for whatever reason.

                    I recently sold a vintage Marantz amp. In my opinion, this whole vintage gear resurgence is nothing but nostalgia, looking back with rose colored glasses, if it had metal dials it must have sounded better sort of thing. But at the same time I get it. Anyway the point is that the gentleman shows up and wants to audition the amp. So I play some music to him and he selects some obscure garage punk rock from way back to listen to and I'm thinking to myself, man this thing just sounds like a bag of snakes. After a little listening I ask him if he would like to listen to a newer amp, just for something to compare it to. He agrees and I hook up a brand new Rega. Same music and suddenly it comes to life, fuller sound, more detail, like a sort of veil has been lifted if you like. Now I'm thinking, wow, it really is chalk and cheese and of course I know which one I'd prefer - but I don't say anything and just let him listen.

                    After a few tracks he turns and says, you know, I think I prefer the sound of the other one.

                    This is a choice that directly defies the objectivity of which one of those amps is technically better.

                    Now, could he tell there was a difference? Yes. Could you pick them in a blind test? Yes, in this case I definitely think so. Would he agree that the sound of the second amp was clearer and more detailed? Probably. And he subjectively chose to purchase the vintage amp and is probably very happy with it.

                    What's my point? I don't think that blind folding anyone and randomly playing different caps and concluding that they couldn't pick which cap was playing under those circumstances is any way to conclude that it doesn't matter what caps you put in a crossover. If this sort of testing resulted in you consistently favoring the sound of say an electrolytic cap (but you couldn't pick that it was that) - then fantastic. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference and any cap will do for everyone. Your simply the Marantz man in my story.

                    A loudspeakers is as good or bad as the sum of its compromises and flaws and I personally believe it takes a good while of listening to truly appreciate the difference higher quality components can offer.

                    There is a lot of snake oil in this industry - but there is also a caution as to how far, or to what, you apply the snake oil category. Take it too far and someone will start claiming there's not difference between drivers.

                    Caps I don't believe are anywhere near this category at all. Do I think we should be paying a thousand dollars for some gold oil filled palladium foil cryo frozen bloody thing - no of course not - I think there's a reasonable limit.

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