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Two-way using Esoteric 7" Woofer & New Esoteric AMT, with First-Order XO?

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  • Two-way using Esoteric 7" Woofer & New Esoteric AMT, with First-Order XO?

    Dayton Audio ES180TiA-8 7" Esoteric Series Woofer 8 Ohm
    Dayton Audio ES104AMT-4 AMT Esoteric Series AMT Tweeter 4 Ohm

    Match made in heaven? I like the way the phase looks.
    I am open for opinions and suggestions!

    Two pics: The pretty one, and another without all the notch filters, for comparison.

    Caveats...
    First, I can't get the tweeter's ZMA file to load. Weird.
    Second, is the tweeter really this good? A DIYA member recently measured one and got a MUCH steeper rising response...

    [Edit: thanks to Chris for sharing his working ZMA file in post 3. I have updated both of the pics in this post now that the sim is more accurate.]
    Last edited by stellarelephant; 03-31-2021, 09:53 PM.

  • #2
    I don't have any experience with these particular drivers but I don't think I would be crossing this woofer up at 5K. You're well into breakup and beaming (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Beaming.htm) territory with a 7inch woofer and remember once this things on an real world baffle all that top end ugliness is going to be accentuated. Admittedly the supplied FR indicates its quite well controlled with this woofer.

    That being said the tweeter is stated as only being useful down to 2.5K.

    Others here might likely have a different view or advice on the topic, but personally, in my humble experience, I have found it difficult to satisfactorily integrate 'larger' woofers with tweeters that are unable to play below 2K. Woofers at the old 6.5" and up generally start hating life after 1-1.5K. This Esoteric doesn't look materially different to me.

    If you've got the money to experiment - why not - they are on sale at the moment. Worst case you'll end up looking for a tweeter that can dig a little lower OR add a small midrange to bridge the gap and make it a 3-way.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, for ME that .zma has zeros in both the imp. and phase columns.
      Try the clio file, or use this:
      275-397.ZMA

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chris Roemer View Post
        Yeah, for ME that .zma has zeros in both the imp. and phase columns.
        Try the clio file, or use this:
        [ATTACH]n1467606[/ATTACH]
        That did the trick. Thanks, Chris. Using the ZMA lowered the response of AMT a bit versus what I had...I'll need to adjust the L-Pad values a bit and update the original post.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm with DeZZar. I think that woofer cone breakup peak at 5.5kHz will sound weird. But, you'll find out.
          Francis

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DeZZar View Post
            I don't have any experience with these particular drivers but I don't think I would be crossing this woofer up at 5K. You're well into breakup and beaming (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Beaming.htm) territory with a 7inch woofer and remember once this things on an real world baffle all that top end ugliness is going to be accentuated. Admittedly the supplied FR indicates its quite well controlled with this woofer.

            That being said the tweeter is stated as only being useful down to 2.5K.

            Others here might likely have a different view or advice on the topic, but personally, in my humble experience, I have found it difficult to satisfactorily integrate 'larger' woofers with tweeters that are unable to play below 2K. Woofers at the old 6.5" and up generally start hating life after 1-1.5K. This Esoteric doesn't look materially different to me.

            If you've got the money to experiment - why not - they are on sale at the moment. Worst case you'll end up looking for a tweeter that can dig a little lower OR add a small midrange to bridge the gap and make it a 3-way.
            Thanks for the cautionary words, DeZZar, and the great link. The truth is, it would be stretching my budget to build something like this, and if I bought the parts, I would need to make it work

            Adding a small midrange may be the best approach, although I don't know if I could get the same degree of phase coherence with another driver in the mix. I agree that two-way with a 7" woofer is a stretch, though! I did try with the smaller 5/12" Esoteric woofer first, and was surprised that this one worked so much better (at least on axis!). So, I should expect some beaming.

            Here's what XSim predicts at 45 degrees off axis. 6dB notch at 4K, and phase alignment above the XO goes out the window, but the response doesn't look too strange. I'm sure that at 60 degrees, it would be another story. So with a speaker like this, would I feel like I had to listen with my head in a vice, in a minuscule sweet spot?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by fpitas View Post
              I'm with DeZZar. I think that woofer cone breakup peak at 5.5kHz will sound weird. But, you'll find out.
              Fpitas, so you think the distortion products would still be evident at 5K even if I stamp down the peak? Perhaps it is foolish to design around this woofer as if it is a full-ranger. It does have the benefit of being built from low-distortion glass fiber, but yeah, distortion probably makes up a significant part of the output in that region. I can imagine that first-order is always going to have to make this compromise to some degree. Thanks for your advice. I'd rather know upfront if this has a very low likelihood of sounding good.

              Comment


              • #8
                7" 2-way is only a stretch with a "non-robust" tweeter (like a ribbon, planar, or a too small/high Fs dome).

                Those would be some expensive notches.
                You know, you can target the same notch freqs. by halving your coil values, and doubling the caps (and probably adj. the resistors).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by stellarelephant View Post
                  two-way with a 7" woofer is a stretch
                  Not at all. As I mentioned, and this is just my view, it's the tweeter that's the issue here because it wants such a high crossover point.

                  If you used say the SB acoustics SB29 tweeter range (or another with a low fs) you will have a better match and can move your crossover point down under 2k and suppress the woofer output above this point.

                  All regular speakers have a sweet spot. I've never heard anything that sounds brilliant 60 degrees off axis - it's just important to make sure it doesn't sound bad off axis as this will be reflected around the room. Realistically anyone seated on a couch facing appropriately positioned speaks is going to be within 15 degrees off axis unless some rather odd circumstances exist.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by stellarelephant View Post

                    Fpitas, so you think the distortion products would still be evident at 5K even if I stamp down the peak? Perhaps it is foolish to design around this woofer as if it is a full-ranger. It does have the benefit of being built from low-distortion glass fiber, but yeah, distortion probably makes up a significant part of the output in that region. I can imagine that first-order is always going to have to make this compromise to some degree. Thanks for your advice. I'd rather know upfront if this has a very low likelihood of sounding good.
                    Distortion yes, and the polar pattern at cone breakup peaks is weird and noticeable.
                    Francis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      [QUOTE=stellarelephant;n1467546]A DIYA member recently measured one and got a MUCH steeper rising response.../QUOTE]
                      I bought a pair wanting to use them in dipole mode. I've only taken time to make a cursory measurement. It has a rising response similar to what is shown at the link. But I'm not as concerned because the rise gives it a rising sensitivity well above the rating for it, so it can fairly easily be EQed. Even easier for me because I'll be using DSP and can flatten each driver individually. Even passively, though, it shouldn't be difficult to get a reasonable top octave response. The sensitivity shouldn't suffer.

                      That said, it is disappointing to see this kind of response measurement when the posted one is so much different.

                      dlr
                      WinPCD - Windows .NET Passive Crossover Designer

                      Dave's Speaker Pages

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Slight hijack question on phase. My recent speaker has a phase response similar to your sim. I really don't know if this phase response is anything unusual, or not. It looks different than most, and I like the speakers a lot. The baffle is sloped, and roll offs are mixed orders. Anyone have any ideas?

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	phase response.JPG
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ID:	1467648

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dlr View Post
                          I bought a pair wanting to use them in dipole mode. I've only taken time to make a cursory measurement. It has a rising response similar to what is shown at the link. But I'm not as concerned because the rise gives it a rising sensitivity well above the rating for it, so it can fairly easily be EQed. Even easier for me because I'll be using DSP and can flatten each driver individually. Even passively, though, it shouldn't be difficult to get a reasonable top octave response. The sensitivity shouldn't suffer.

                          That said, it is disappointing to see this kind of response measurement when the posted one is so much different.

                          dlr
                          Thanks for confirming this, dlr. I don't have measurement gear, so for me, the main draw of using two PE drivers for a new design is getting FRD and ZMA files I can trust. Now that I have heard from two people who've measure the Esoteric AMT and gotten similar results that dramatically contradict the published response files, I certainly don't trust the files anymore!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rpb View Post
                            Slight hijack question on phase. My recent speaker has a phase response similar to your sim. I really don't know if this phase response is anything unusual, or not. It looks different than most, and I like the speakers a lot. The baffle is sloped, and roll offs are mixed orders. Anyone have any ideas?

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	phase response.JPG Views:	0 Size:	248.8 KB ID:	1467648
                            I think you have to superimpose the phase of each driver to see if they align? Otherwise the plot of is probably an average of the two.

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                            • #15
                              It looks like a possibly very nice combo, but you may end up settling for a bit of a dip in the midrange. That's not necessarily a bad thing in my experience.

                              I would be looking at something closer to a 1 mH inductor for the woofer. This could result in a 3500 Hz crossover with at least a 2 or 3 decibel shallow dip in the midrange. In effect, your bass and highs will be boosted relative to the mids.

                              Also, I like your second sim without the notch filters much better. The impedance is so much nicer. They look like nice drivers, keep it simple!

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