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DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

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  • mike1234
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Thanks, Johnny. I'll be calling PE to beg for the passed DOTD price.;)


    Originally posted by johnnyrichards View Post
    I gotta side with vas on this one. I have a sub built by TC sounds, an OEM driver for Infinity (!) of all companies. Simply incredible sound. It has 25mm of linear 1-way xmax and does it's job very well.

    Some people, after reading Zaphs blog about low xmax sounding better than high xmax, instantly reach for that when these discussions invariably arise. Given the perception that low xmax sounds better than high xmax, it must invariably follow that Goldwood builds better subwoofers than TC sounds did (or LMS or Adire or Dayton). Is this true? Based purely on the stance that low xmax sounds better, it has to be true. We all know it's not, but it is interesting to point out that the majority of high quality drivers today offer what was exotic levels of excursion just 15 years ago. In fact, the Infinity Perfect subwoofers introduced in the late 90's advertised itself as having the highest linear excursion of any driver on the market... At 14mm.

    Going beyond the xmax spec and getting into the nuts and bolts of a driver, xmax starts falling way behind in the determination of what constitutes a decent driver. In fact, given everything I have read about driver construction and the myriad ways manufacturers have come up with to reduce distortion I would say that xmax is a consideration only when faced with enormous amounts of power or limited space. Buying or not buying a driver based on xmax is missing quite a bit of other potential performance.

    Case in point is the DOTD sub... it matches the Dayton HO 10" in engineering, and at the sale price the cost difference is negligible when buying only one or two. I would put this driver up against any other 10" +/- $50 of it's sale price as far as sound quality, and ten to top it off it has massive output potential based on.... Massive Xmax. Couple that with extremely high thermal power handling and you have a serious driver that will offer low distortion.
    On the other hand, you can buy an extremely high excursion 8" driver from MCm for very little money and i would say that in that particular case the SQ is probably not that great... Probably very poor, actually. However, there are a thousand 8" drivers with 1-4mm of xmax that sound just as bad of not worse.

    Xmax is not the be-all and end-all, but it can be the tie breaker.

    Leave a comment:


  • mike1234
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Cr@p... I'll bet it's too late to beg PE for the DOTD price now.:(


    Originally posted by djarchow View Post
    The TC-Sounds LMS 5400 is probably the best subwoofer driver ever built. It has very low distortion, massive output and is built like a tank. Too bad they aren't available anymore. Hopefully Thilo will start building them again. A friend of mine got his back when they were still under a grand and he refuses to sell it to me.

    Here is a test by Iikka Rissanen over at Home TheaterShack of the 18" 5400.

    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-200l-new.html

    For comparison, here is the $3500 JL Audio Fathom F113, reportedly one of the best subs out there. Look at the distortion even at lower output compared to the TC.

    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-f113-new.html

    Again this isn't to say that the low price TC driver that this post is really about compares to the LMS driver at 10 times the price. But at the DOTD price it is hard to go wrong assuming it meets your needs.

    Regards,

    Dennis

    Leave a comment:


  • mike1234
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Vas,

    Thank you for the thorough explanation. I want to emphasize how much I appreciate your absolute honesty while being courteous/kind. I'm beginning to feel guilty for some of my earlier posts...

    I know you're right about rash conclusions. I tend to generalize too often and "generally", as you allude to here, large Xmax subwoofers, if poorly designed, sound horrible. Apparently I've only heard cr@ppy high excursion subs so please forgive my skepticism.

    I posed this question because I'd like to hear trusted opinions and/or test those AP 10's before buying several at $140 each. All too often I buy on impulse or with others' recmmendations only to be disappointed.

    Again, Vas... thank you.


    Originally posted by vasyachkin View Post
    Here Is The Only Explanation You Will Ever Need.

    Its Harder To Make A Woofer With Large Xmax Sound Clean Than A Woofer With Low Xmax Just Like It Is Harder To Make A Car With Large Engine To Handle Good Than A Car With Small Engine ( Harder To Control Extra Weight Around Corners )

    If You Have To Compare Two Cars In The Same Price Range Then You Can Bet A Japanese Car With 4 Cylinders ( Honda S2000 ) Will Handle Better Than American With 8 ( Cadillac Dts )

    However Ferrari Enzo With V12 Engine Will Handle Better Than Honda S2000 ... But You Will Pay Almost A Million Dollars For It

    Audiopulse Lms Is Like Ferrari Enzo. When You Look At The Size Of The Engine Alone You Would Think It Is Not A Car At All, But A Farm Tractor Or A School Bus. But You Would Be Mistaken.

    You Cannot Just Look At Xmax And Make A Conclusion. The Level Of Engineering In An Enzo Or Audiopulse Is Just Not The Same As In A Minivan Or Tang Band or whatever it is called

    Leave a comment:


  • johnnyrichards
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    I gotta side with vas on this one. I have a sub built by TC sounds, an OEM driver for Infinity (!) of all companies. Simply incredible sound. It has 25mm of linear 1-way xmax and does it's job very well.

    Some people, after reading Zaphs blog about low xmax sounding better than high xmax, instantly reach for that when these discussions invariably arise. Given the perception that low xmax sounds better than high xmax, it must invariably follow that Goldwood builds better subwoofers than TC sounds did (or LMS or Adire or Dayton). Is this true? Based purely on the stance that low xmax sounds better, it has to be true. We all know it's not, but it is interesting to point out that the majority of high quality drivers today offer what was exotic levels of excursion just 15 years ago. In fact, the Infinity Perfect subwoofers introduced in the late 90's advertised itself as having the highest linear excursion of any driver on the market... At 14mm.

    Going beyond the xmax spec and getting into the nuts and bolts of a driver, xmax starts falling way behind in the determination of what constitutes a decent driver. In fact, given everything I have read about driver construction and the myriad ways manufacturers have come up with to reduce distortion I would say that xmax is a consideration only when faced with enormous amounts of power or limited space. Buying or not buying a driver based on xmax is missing quite a bit of other potential performance.

    Case in point is the DOTD sub... it matches the Dayton HO 10" in engineering, and at the sale price the cost difference is negligible when buying only one or two. I would put this driver up against any other 10" +/- $50 of it's sale price as far as sound quality, and ten to top it off it has massive output potential based on.... Massive Xmax. Couple that with extremely high thermal power handling and you have a serious driver that will offer low distortion.
    On the other hand, you can buy an extremely high excursion 8" driver from MCm for very little money and i would say that in that particular case the SQ is probably not that great... Probably very poor, actually. However, there are a thousand 8" drivers with 1-4mm of xmax that sound just as bad of not worse.

    Xmax is not the be-all and end-all, but it can be the tie breaker.

    Leave a comment:


  • vasyachkin
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Originally posted by mzisserson View Post
    Wow... Just sitting on the floor with no enclosure and it sounded good. I think that just about say all anyone needs to know about your knowledge of audio,speakers, and sound. You need to learn to back up what you say with some scientific fact if you want anyone to take you seriously. There are so many holes in your little test, I would slice it thin and put it on my sandwich.
    the test wasn't meant to be scientific. we did it without enclosure because i wasn't about to build an enclosure for RCF just to compare the drivers and we wanted to be comparing apples to apples.

    once we actually did it though it soon became obvious that there was no comparing the two, they were just not in the same league.

    RCF performed predictably - it didn't produce any bass since it wasn't mounted in an enclosure, it did produce plenty of distortion because it was a paper woofer driven by nonlinear motor and when i applied more than a kilowatt of power it started to smell like it was burning

    Audiopulse ( was then called TC Sounds LMS 5400 ) on the other hand seemingly defied the laws of physics. it produced clean, deep bass without any enclosure, without any distortion.

    here is a pic with the enclosure:

    http://www.box.net/shared/static/qhsy2cbr6f.jpg

    If you were there, trust me, you wouldn't need any additional testing to know that this is the best subwoofer on the market

    Leave a comment:


  • djarchow
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    The TC-Sounds LMS 5400 is probably the best subwoofer driver ever built. It has very low distortion, massive output and is built like a tank. Too bad they aren't available anymore. Hopefully Thilo will start building them again. A friend of mine got his back when they were still under a grand and he refuses to sell it to me.

    Here is a test by Iikka Rissanen over at Home TheaterShack of the 18" 5400.

    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-200l-new.html

    For comparison, here is the $3500 JL Audio Fathom F113, reportedly one of the best subs out there. Look at the distortion even at lower output compared to the TC.

    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...-f113-new.html

    Again this isn't to say that the low price TC driver that this post is really about compares to the LMS driver at 10 times the price. But at the DOTD price it is hard to go wrong assuming it meets your needs.

    Regards,

    Dennis

    Leave a comment:


  • christianb
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Originally posted by vasyachkin View Post
    Here Is The Only Explanation You Will Ever Need.
    Wow, you really told him!

    Leave a comment:


  • vasyachkin
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Originally posted by mike1234 View Post
    hmm... It's The Low Vs. High Xmax Thing. This Has Always Kunfyoozed Me. I Wish Zaph Would Chime In With A Big Fat "why" Low Xmax Is Better.
    Here Is The Only Explanation You Will Ever Need.

    Its Harder To Make A Woofer With Large Xmax Sound Clean Than A Woofer With Low Xmax Just Like It Is Harder To Make A Car With Large Engine To Handle Good Than A Car With Small Engine ( Harder To Control Extra Weight Around Corners )

    If You Have To Compare Two Cars In The Same Price Range Then You Can Bet A Japanese Car With 4 Cylinders ( Honda S2000 ) Will Handle Better Than American With 8 ( Cadillac Dts )

    However Ferrari Enzo With V12 Engine Will Handle Better Than Honda S2000 ... But You Will Pay Almost A Million Dollars For It

    Audiopulse Lms Is Like Ferrari Enzo. When You Look At The Size Of The Engine Alone You Would Think It Is Not A Car At All, But A Farm Tractor Or A School Bus. But You Would Be Mistaken.

    You Cannot Just Look At Xmax And Make A Conclusion. The Level Of Engineering In An Enzo Or Audiopulse Is Just Not The Same As In A Minivan Or Tang Band or whatever it is called

    Leave a comment:


  • mzisserson
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Originally posted by vasyachkin View Post
    nonsense.

    when i ordered mine for $1200 my friend told me it couldn't possibly sound good because it is a 70 pound 18" unit. then when it came we put it head to head against a high-end 15" prosound driver ( top of the line RCF ) which had 5mm xmax and 96db efficiency. the result ? prosound driver sounded like mud and audiopulse clean as a bell and just sitting on the floor without any enclosure the entire building was shaking from bass. my friend simply had to admit that he never witnessed anything like it.

    also during our "testing" the prosound driver which was rated 1200W AES and 2400W program started to smell like burnt plastic while we pumped the audiopulse up to probably twice as loud and observed no such effects.

    the LMS unit i have cannot even be compared to any other driver. it would be like comparing a spaceship to a wheelchair.

    i never tried any other Audiopulse units except the LMS but if their $1200 driver was well worth the price then i would have to guess their cheaper drivers would also be.

    Wow... Just sitting on the floor with no enclosure and it sounded good. I think that just about say all anyone needs to know about your knowledge of audio,speakers, and sound. You need to learn to back up what you say with some scientific fact if you want anyone to take you seriously. There are so many holes in your little test, I would slice it thin and put it on my sandwich.

    Leave a comment:


  • vasyachkin
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Originally posted by philiparcario View Post
    I like a little less xmax myself. I have a feeling the audiopluse may sound a little muddy to my ears.
    nonsense.

    when i ordered mine for $1200 my friend told me it couldn't possibly sound good because it is a 70 pound 18" unit. then when it came we put it head to head against a high-end 15" prosound driver ( top of the line RCF ) which had 5mm xmax and 96db efficiency. the result ? prosound driver sounded like mud and audiopulse clean as a bell and just sitting on the floor without any enclosure the entire building was shaking from bass. my friend simply had to admit that he never witnessed anything like it.

    also during our "testing" the prosound driver which was rated 1200W AES and 2400W program started to smell like burnt plastic while we pumped the audiopulse up to probably twice as loud and observed no such effects.

    the LMS unit i have cannot even be compared to any other driver. it would be like comparing a spaceship to a wheelchair.

    i never tried any other Audiopulse units except the LMS but if their $1200 driver was well worth the price then i would have to guess their cheaper drivers would also be.

    Leave a comment:


  • marvin
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Zaph's explanation is posted on his site: http://www.zaphaudio.com/lowxmax.html

    Marv

    Leave a comment:


  • mike1234
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Hmm... it's the low vs. high Xmax thing. This has always kunfyoozed me. I wish Zaph would chime in with a big fat "WHY" low Xmax is better.

    Leave a comment:


  • mzisserson
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    Phil,
    I agree, I don't think a sub with a 2mm one way x-max is supreme, but when you get above 6mm one way, I find that music with hard transients on the kick drum mussy up the bass line and they need some OOBER power to drive properly.

    Leave a comment:


  • philiparcario
    replied
    Re: DOTD Audiopulse 10" Sub

    I like a little less xmax myself. I have a feeling the audiopluse may sound a little muddy to my ears. while my dayton rss390 and the nht1259's sound right for my ears. I have never heard a good sounding sub with super xmax small box lots of power. i also have not heard the audiopulse I just don't want to spend the money to find out.

    Leave a comment:


  • mzisserson
    replied
    Re: ^^^ I like different perspectives.

    Originally posted by mike1234 View Post
    Especially when they differ from Vas' opinion. JK, Vas. :p
    Since I have been more of a lurker lately... I notice a truth there. :D

    Leave a comment:

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