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MDF Sealant Horror

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  • #31
    Re: MDF Sealant Horror

    (zipping up flame suit)

    I honestly don't get why this is such a dilemma, and why we keep debating it.

    Use wood glue/water and be done with it.

    It's cheap, easy to work with, easy to clean up, sands well, no fumes.

    No, it doesn't cause the mdf to warp or expand due to the water content... HONEST.

    Works much better than shellac (I've tried both).

    Never tried it, but it sounds like straight elmers also works well.
    Form does not follow function
    Form is simultaneous to function

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: MDF Sealant Horror

      There is an epoxy formulation for just about any need.
      Most pro auto body restorers use epoxy primers on bare metal for its' superior adhesion and rust preventative properties.
      It is easy to spray and sand.

      Oh, the odor. No free lunch here. The stuff stinks.
      But it almost as easy to work with as any other primer.
      Most people aren't bothered by it but some will develop contact sensitivity. Usually it's only irritating. Best to wear gloves and always wear a respirator if spraying. The solvents can be a bother like any other so an organic cartridge mask is reccommended whether brushing or spraying.

      I use System 3 these days. Applied with a brush. My epoxy supplier went away and I haven't found another yet.

      Originally posted by tech9_79 View Post
      Is epoxy easy to spray and work with? hows the odor? I hate working with materials that have harsh solvents. And i agree anything 2k just is not worth the brain tumors..:eek:

      If the process is simple, doesn't take a month and won't kill me im all about it.
      ~99%
      Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
      Make me a poster of an old rodeo
      Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
      To believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: MDF Sealant Horror

        Originally posted by rwrankin View Post
        Hey Dave,

        I was not intimating that I was blaming anyone for my MDF sealing issue. Sorry if I came off that way! I have always had very good luck with Min Wax products over the years and hoped that the size of my project compared to your totally awesome looking Nightmares might have worked out better. Your Nightmare pictures depicted the desired sealing as far as I could see.
        Also, I was trying to sneak reading your post about the build process while at work and may have missed the part where you explained your experience and dislike(s) of the Wood Hardener. I was popping back and forth between several work related windows unfortunately. Sorry, not casting any dispersions your way what so ever. Would never do that, ever.
        But after sealing both cabinets using one bottle of the Wood Hardener on each, costly as it was, the sealing produced a pretty nice base for the primer (Glidden's "Gripper") which went on very evenly and should make final layer(s) of paint go on very well.
        Time will tell though, because my wife just came up with another of those "Honey Do" projects for me! Looks like I am going to learn (on the fly) how to install a ceramic tile back splash in our recently remodeled kitchen!
        Does it ever end with the "Honey Do" stuff?????
        No problem. Didn't think anything of it. I take so much from this site in learning that when I can I try to give back.
        Dave
        http://www.pellegreneacoustics.com/

        Trench Seam Method for MDF
        https://picasaweb.google.com/101632266659473725850

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: MDF Sealant Horror

          Originally posted by bobbarkto View Post
          There is an epoxy formulation for just about any need.
          Most pro auto body restorers use epoxy primers on bare metal for its' superior adhesion and rust preventative properties.
          It is easy to spray and sand.

          Oh, the odor. No free lunch here. The stuff stinks.
          But it almost as easy to work with as any other primer.
          Most people aren't bothered by it but some will develop contact sensitivity. Usually it's only irritating. Best to wear gloves and always wear a respirator if spraying. The solvents can be a bother like any other so an organic cartridge mask is reccommended whether brushing or spraying.

          I use System 3 these days. Applied with a brush. My epoxy supplier went away and I haven't found another yet.
          Thought I should chime in here. I have used a lot of different products with hardeners in them through the years with no issues. About seven years ago I started using Epoxy grout for ceramic tile. For some reason I had bad reactions on my skin from it. It was like having poison ivy with sun burn at the same time. The only way I could get rid of it was with dose packets of Steroids. Since then I have became Sensitized to epoxy. Without going into to much detail I now were several layers of gloves and a respirator with a carbon filter. I have also made a chemical resistant tyvek suit with fresh air pumping into it for when I am in non ventilated areas. When I can I have my son and daughter do the grouting for me. I make them were gloves and neither one have ever had a reaction. I have read that everyone is sensitive to epoxy at some level and could be come sensitized to it at anytime. So it is very important to were protection when using it. I do believe it is one of the best products out there when used properly.
          Dave
          http://www.pellegreneacoustics.com/

          Trench Seam Method for MDF
          https://picasaweb.google.com/101632266659473725850

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: MDF Sealant Horror

            sigh...

            WOOD GLUE AND WATER!

            You could eat it and it wouldn't hurt you.
            Form does not follow function
            Form is simultaneous to function

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: MDF Sealant Horror

              Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
              sigh...

              WOOD GLUE AND WATER!

              You could eat it and it wouldn't hurt you.
              Before I go the full epoxy route I am going to test the glue process, with the auto primer and paint over it, to see if the seams expand. This sure would be cheaper and easier.
              Dave
              http://www.pellegreneacoustics.com/

              Trench Seam Method for MDF
              https://picasaweb.google.com/101632266659473725850

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                Originally posted by davepellegrene View Post
                Before I go the full epoxy route I am going to test the glue process, with the auto primer and paint over it, to see if the seams expand. This sure would be cheaper and easier.
                Dave
                Check my build thread here.

                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=208196
                Form does not follow function
                Form is simultaneous to function

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                  In my experience, the notion that a wood glue/water mixture causes mdf to expand is an unfounded myth.

                  I've used this technique with 4 speakers and 2 large speaker stands and have never encountered a problem.

                  I use about 60% Titebond II, 40% water. Works great.
                  Form does not follow function
                  Form is simultaneous to function

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                    Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                    sigh...

                    WOOD GLUE AND WATER!

                    You could eat it and it wouldn't hurt you.
                    I dont think anyone is saying glue/water doesnt work, but im just not keen on the idea slathering mdf in water and water based glue. Besides that, if your going for a high gloss super smooth finish can you get glue to look like this?

                    Urethane Primer
                    then this
                    tremclad/rustoleum

                    Plus you can spray it.
                    My Gigers.. Tritrix/DVC10 http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=222891

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                      Originally posted by tech9_79 View Post
                      I dont think anyone is saying glue/water doesnt work, but im just not keen on the idea slathering mdf in water and water based glue. Besides that, if your going for a high gloss super smooth finish can you get glue to look like this?

                      Urethane Primer
                      then this
                      tremclad/rustoleum

                      Plus you can spray it.
                      The key word here is the "idea" that it would be a problem. Many people have expressed an issue with this "idea"... The simple truth is that it's not an issue...

                      Yes, you can achieve some excellent paint finishes, including glossy. It sands extremely smooth. You will then of course use primer over it, which can then be sanded as smooth as it could be over any other sealant.

                      Here are some pix of speakers I've painted int this way. No I wasn't after a glossy finish. But I certainly could have achieved it if I wanted to.











                      Form does not follow function
                      Form is simultaneous to function

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                        It's no myth.
                        Wood and mdf expand when moisture is introduced. It's easily verified. Just measure or weigh before and after.
                        Eventually the moisture will evaporate and the mdf will shrink.
                        Simple. Incontrovertible. Just measure or weigh and you will see.

                        Woodworkers have been dealing with moisture induced movement for as long as they've been working wood.

                        Many millions of woodworkers will acknowledge this. Don't be a luddite, the earth is no longer flat.

                        Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                        In my experience, the notion that a wood glue/water mixture causes mdf to expand is an unfounded myth.

                        I've used this technique with 4 speakers and 2 large speaker stands and have never encountered a problem.

                        I use about 60% Titebond II, 40% water. Works great.
                        ~99%
                        Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
                        Make me a poster of an old rodeo
                        Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
                        To believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                          Originally posted by bobbarkto View Post
                          It's no myth.
                          Wood and mdf expand when moisture is introduced. It's easily verified. Just measure or weigh before and after.
                          Eventually the moisture will evaporate and the mdf will shrink.
                          Simple. Incontrovertible. Just measure or weigh and you will see.

                          Woodworkers have been dealing with moisture induced movement for as long as they've been working wood.

                          Many millions of woodworkers will acknowledge this. Don't be a luddite, the earth is no longer flat.
                          How am I a flat-earther if I'm speaking from experience?

                          Those blue speakers are nearly a year old. I'll go take some pictures tonight. Maybe then you'll believe me.
                          Form does not follow function
                          Form is simultaneous to function

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                            I should add that wood glue mixed with some water is not as watery as you all are envisioning... it really doesn't get sucked up as much as you're all dreading.
                            Form does not follow function
                            Form is simultaneous to function

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                              I can see the joint lines on the red cabinets. Had you done a high gloss black "piano" finish you would see them too.
                              That is the issue.

                              There is no problem achieving a high gloss smooth shiny finish. It's the joint lines showing that is the problem for some and is why the exotic methods are discussed.

                              And yes, like has been said a thousand times, some folks are fortunate in that they can't see the lines!

                              Oh, there are numerous products that will be easier to sand than any wood glue.
                              I don't know a single wood finisher that would intentionally want to sand that stuff. We go out of our way to avoid that for the most part.




                              Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                              The key word here is the "idea" that it would be a problem. Many people have expressed an issue with this "idea"... The simple truth is that it's not an issue...

                              Yes, you can achieve some excellent paint finishes, including glossy. It sands extremely smooth. You will then of course use primer over it, which can then be sanded as smooth as it could be over any other sealant.

                              Here are some pix of speakers I've painted int this way. No I wasn't after a glossy finish. But I certainly could have achieved it if I wanted to.
                              ~99%
                              Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
                              Make me a poster of an old rodeo
                              Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
                              To believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: MDF Sealant Horror

                                Please, don't.
                                That will not further this discussion.

                                You are denying that wood or mdf expand and contract with changes in moisture content. A picture of a cabinet will not prove to you that you are wrong.



                                Originally posted by lunchmoney View Post
                                How am I a flat-earther if I'm speaking from experience?

                                Those blue speakers are nearly a year old. I'll go take some pictures tonight. Maybe then you'll believe me.
                                ~99%
                                Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
                                Make me a poster of an old rodeo
                                Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
                                To believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go

                                Comment

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