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  • Veneer over roundovers?

    I've done one veneer project with right angle cabinet edges, using paper backed veneer and contact cement, but now I think I'm ready to tackle a project with roundovers.

    In reading though a bunch of threads it looks like the most common roundover radius used with veneer is 3/4" with a few guys doing 1/2" but with some difficulty.

    Any suggestions as to what minimum radius to use to make the veneering go smoothly and whether there are any precautions to take to prevent cracking or other problems that could crop up?

    Thanks for your help,
    Louis

  • #2
    Re: Veneer over roundovers?

    I was hitting some of the links in this thread earlier to joewoodworker.com where they talk a lot about dealing with wavy veneer as well as cold creep.

    I would think that you could do something like 1/2" roundover without too many problems as long as the roundover parallels the grain of the veneer, moistening it a little to soften it up prior to bending. I think if you did this and used something like that heat lock adhesive, you'd make it through. My interest has been peaked in this too, as I'm hoping to pull off my first veneering job on these PC speakers I'm putting together.

    I don't know if paper backed would be the way to go on a tight bend.. I also tend to think that the paper backing might fight you since it's on the inside of the bend radius. Hoping someone else will chime in.
    ~Mark

    Stuff I've builded http://techtalk.parts-express.com/co...lies/smile.png

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Veneer over roundovers?

      Originally posted by WWWJD View Post
      I was hitting some of the links in this thread earlier to joewoodworker.com where they talk a lot about dealing with wavy veneer as well as cold creep.


      I don't know if paper backed would be the way to go on a tight bend.. I also tend to think that the paper backing might fight you since it's on the inside of the bend radius. Hoping someone else will chime in.
      I have used standard grain paper backed cherry veneer on 3/4 radius round overs. My experience suggests paper backed veneer is more likely to hold together under this type of stress. I have seen unbacked veneer split (in time) on a flat MDF surface

      I have no experience with 1/2" round overs.

      Marvin

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Veneer over roundovers?

        People get away with all kinds of stuff. It's not impossible to glue the veneer over 1/2 radius but not advisable. Veneer can de laminate from the paper back over time as well. It is of cause depends on the shape of the speaker, kind of veneer and grain direction.
        If you own a vacuum press or have an access to one, then it would be preferred. I'd use Unibond 800 and glue the veneer in the bag.
        There's no clear advantage to Heat Lock over say Tighbond 2 using iron on method. The trick is to spread the glue on the surface very very evenly. Paint roller works great.
        I strongly oppose contact cement for raw veneer. Paper backed veneer can work with contact cement. There's water base and solvent base contact cement. I've see good results with laminates with either one so for a DIY a water based contact cement should be less hazardous to use.
        http://www.diy-ny.com/

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        • #5
          Re: Veneer over roundovers?

          1/2" Round over would be very, very tough! I am curious as to whether paper back would crinkle/buckle/bunch up through the radius. Raw would probably tend to split. Going straight through and around the corners, your cabinets better be square and the opposing sides had better be parallel!

          Food for thought - what if you leave the edges square...veneer it it sequentially around the cabinet, come back with a rabbetting bit on the ol router, notch in a 1/2" x 1/2" rabbet and lay in a piece of hardwood to match the veneer. Then switch over to the 1/2" round over and have at it? I have done this on several occasions and the results where fantastic. Disclaimer...I was exceedingly lucky that the hardwood I had matched up to the veneer...and it took me a couple of hours to match up the pieces to the veneer so that the joints looked right.

          Regards,
          Wayne

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Veneer over roundovers?

            3/4" radius with 10 mil or NBL backer (parallel to grain) is a safe bet. A lot depends on the box construction. If it's not close to perfectly straight and square, you can wind up with some issues at the corners. The longer the box, the harder it is to do.

            1/2" is doable with very straight grain (rift cut white oak for example)
            Lou's Speaker Site [speakers.lonesaguaro.com]
            "Different" is objective, "better" is subjective. Taste is not a provable fact.
            Where are you John Galt? I may not be worthy, but I'm ready.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Veneer over roundovers?

              Hi Louis,

              I have used paper-backed PSA veneer on 1/2" roundovers twice (well, 3 times, but 1 failed miserably).

              1st was on the Shticks with Red Birch and it went perfectly without any special efforts.



              2nd was on the Encores. I used paper-backed PSA qtr-sawn oak and it failed completely. The veneer split immediately when trying to go over the roundovers. I was able to pull it off and salvage some of it for future use.

              3rd try was again on the Encores with some paper-backed PSA Curly Maple. It worked but was a little troublesome on the corners. I got some bubbles that took a lot of effort to work out.



              I think using a veneer conditioner might be the way to go to lessen the chances of spliting on 1/2" corners (that and going with smooth grained wood parallel to the roundover). I also think I will keep my eye out for a 5/8" roundover to get a little bigger radius without going all the way to the 3/4" (when I don't have the room). I have used paper-backed veneer with contact cement on 3/4" roundovers and that is a piece of cake.

              Good luck, Andy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                Hey guys, thanks for all the insights and personal experiences. It sounds like 1/2" would be pretty tricky for my first shot, which is ok. I am not opposed to using a 3/4" roundover if it improves my chances of success on the finish.

                It also doesn't sound like there is any clear advantage of using the paper backed veneer to reduce the chances of splitting, etc.

                I read through some of the threads you guys linked to and there are a lot of options on the gules that can be used. I was thinking of perhaps using epoxy on the surfaces with the roundover and contact cement on the top, bottom and back. My thinking is that its probably hard to beat the epoxy in terms of adhesion but it can be very difficult to clean up. So I would do the curved front and sides first and make sure to clean up any epoxy that smears onto the unfinished surfaces. Then I would trim the epoxied veneer and add the other surfaces with contact cement and then trim them.

                Louis

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                  Originally posted by LouC View Post
                  3/4" radius with 10 mil or NBL backer (parallel to grain) is a safe bet. A lot depends on the box construction. If it's not close to perfectly straight and square, you can wind up with some issues at the corners. The longer the box, the harder it is to do.

                  1/2" is doable with very straight grain (rift cut white oak for example)
                  Lou,

                  What is an NBL backer?

                  Louis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                    Originally posted by andykriech View Post
                    Hi Louis,

                    I have used paper-backed PSA veneer on 1/2" roundovers twice (well, 3 times, but 1 failed miserably).

                    1st was on the Shticks with Red Birch and it went perfectly without any special efforts.



                    2nd was on the Encores. I used paper-backed PSA qtr-sawn oak and it failed completely. The veneer split immediately when trying to go over the roundovers. I was able to pull it off and salvage some of it for future use.

                    3rd try was again on the Encores with some paper-backed PSA Curly Maple. It worked but was a little troublesome on the corners. I got some bubbles that took a lot of effort to work out.



                    I think using a veneer conditioner might be the way to go to lessen the chances of spliting on 1/2" corners (that and going with smooth grained wood parallel to the roundover). I also think I will keep my eye out for a 5/8" roundover to get a little bigger radius without going all the way to the 3/4" (when I don't have the room). I have used paper-backed veneer with contact cement on 3/4" roundovers and that is a piece of cake.

                    Good luck, Andy.
                    Andy,

                    Those are some great looking cabinets. I was admiring your 3d try with the encores when you originally posted them. You can tell that a lot of TLC went into that build

                    Louis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                      Originally posted by Ludo View Post
                      Lou,

                      What is an NBL backer?

                      Louis
                      NBL = No Black Line. It is a wood backer and eliminates that black line that you sometimes see at the edge of two paper-backed veneered sides.

                      http://www.formwood.com/product_info...no-black-line/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                        I've been veneering over 1/2" roundovers for years with no problems as long as the veneer 10 mil paperbacked and something like oak, maple, cherry, mahogany, etc. I had a little trouble with cracking when doing this with birds eye maple on larger cabinets, but I've got some small TM cabinets that I had no trouble with the BEM veneer on 1/2" roundovers.

                        Oh, and I've done this both with contact cement and Titebond II.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                          http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/flattening.htm

                          Super-Soft 2 Veneer Softener...and raw veneer. Check out all the info on the veneer flattening page, and especially check out the demo video where he wraps raw madrone veneer around a pencil, after treatment with Super-Soft 2. A roundover on a speaker cabinet is fairly straight forward one the veneer has the required give to it.

                          I've used one of two species of raw I bought and I still get a ****-eatin' grin on my face whenever I look at it, which is often since it sits right on my computer table. I used the veneer to wrap a small amplifier lm4780 I'm building. I've got a camera on the way so I'll post some pics in a week or so.
                          ...rain... has a fidelity of its own.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                            Originally posted by deLuxhifi View Post
                            http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/flattening.htm

                            Super-Soft 2 Veneer Softener...and raw veneer. Check out all the info on the veneer flattening page, and especially check out the demo video where he wraps raw madrone veneer around a pencil, after treatment with Super-Soft 2. A roundover on a speaker cabinet is fairly straight forward one the veneer has the required give to it.

                            I've used one of two species of raw I bought and I still get a ****-eatin' grin on my face whenever I look at it, which is often since it sits right on my computer table. I used the veneer to wrap a small amplifier lm4780 I'm building. I've got a camera on the way so I'll post some pics in a week or so.
                            Wow, that roll of veneer at the bottom looks like leather. I'll go to Southern Lumber this weekend to see if they have any of the softener in the store and try out veneering some 1/2" and 3/4" roundovers to guage what I am getting myself into. My main concern is that the veneer comes out looking perfect and that it lasts.

                            Louis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Veneer over roundovers?

                              Originally posted by Ludo View Post
                              It also doesn't sound like there is any clear advantage of using the paper backed veneer to reduce the chances of splitting, etc.

                              I read through some of the threads you guys linked to and there are a lot of options on the gules that can be used. I was thinking of perhaps using epoxy on the surfaces with the roundover and contact cement on the top, bottom and back. My thinking is that its probably hard to beat the epoxy in terms of adhesion but it can be very difficult to clean up. So I would do the curved front and sides first and make sure to clean up any epoxy that smears onto the unfinished surfaces. Then I would trim the epoxied veneer and add the other surfaces with contact cement and then trim them.

                              Louis
                              3/4" is better for diffraction and easier to bend veneer around, so why not go 3/4 if you have the router bit? For a 1st attempt stick with paper backed, the wood is quite thin on paper backed, which may seem like a bad thing, but it bends easier around corners and you don't have to deal with multiple pieces. Paper backed is more expensive, but worth it IMO.

                              I've never heard of anyone using epoxy for veneer, but I don't get out much.

                              If you go raw veneer don't use water based enviro-friendly contact cement, the water swells the wood on one side, expanding it and making it curl, a logistical nightmare. After you've forced it down after that the water dries and the wood contracts leaving you some nice cracks to fill in.

                              The only problem I had with veneering a roundover is that the cut surface of the MDF at the roundover sucked up all the glue such that there wasn't much left for gluing the veneer and it didn't stick at the roundover well, so I now seal the cut surfaces of MDF.

                              Rob
                              Copy of Lou C's speaker pages: http://www.rob-elder.com/LouC/speakers.html

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