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RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

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  • RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

    Well, I've been contemplating a 3-way with the RSS315 for a while now. I modeled up what I'd consider a fairly beefy setup. 3 cubic feet tuned to 16.5Hz using a 15" PR from AE Speakers. Baffle diffraction simulations were generated with Jeff B's tools and BDS, traces taken from Zaph and PE for the mid, tweet, and woofer respectively.

    200 and 1400Hz on the XO points.

    It might be here sooner than I thought!!!

    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

  • #2
    Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

    Perfectly reasonable. The biggest issue is whether one wants the subwoofer in the same location as the "mains" . . . because of the different relations to room acoustics the best (or the predetermined) location for the mains is not always best for the sub(s). It's a generic "all-in-one" problem. Of course if the location works for both it's not an issue, but . . .

    A RS180 would work just as well as the Usher over that range, and it's a natural application for active crossover (you should try that right hand side of the PCD spreadsheet sometime ;)), but that would make a different loudspeaker . . .
    "It suggests that there is something that is happening in the real system that is not quite captured in the models."

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

      [QUOTE=Pete Schumacher ;1619434]Well, I've been contemplating a 3-way with the RSS315 for a while now. I modeled up what I'd consider a fairly beefy setup. 3 cubic feet tuned to 16.5Hz using a 15" PR from AE Speakers. Baffle diffraction simulations were generated with Jeff B's tools and BDS, traces taken from Zaph and PE for the mid, tweet, and woofer respectively.

      200 and 1400Hz on the XO points.

      It might be here sooner than I thought!!!


      Cool! I'll be following this one with interest. I have two of those subs waiting in the wings for a similar purpose (but will be sealed, and with different mids and tweeters). Were there other mid options you considered? I'm always interested in people's decision making processes in speaker design. Is it a single cabinet design or are the subs in a separate enclosure? That thing is going to be heavy!

      Gordon
      Gordon
      --------------------
      Speaker projects:
      Microbe: http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...Picture005.jpg
      Extremish: http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...h/IMG_0013.jpg
      Seas27TBFCG/VifaXT18: http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...Picture155.jpg
      in progress: http://s234.photobucket.com/user/gor...-way%20project

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

        pete mentioned it would be two boxes.

        I have these as mtm/woofer 3 ways they use active crossovers. the mtm uses pe's bi amp plate the woofer uses a reckhorn crossover.

        drivers are
        1 focal TLR tweeter
        2 focal 7w4411 midwoofers
        nht1259 subwoofer

        crossover points are 120hz

        3000hz

        these cost more but I have a feeling pete's will sound as good.
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

          Originally posted by Deward Hastings View Post
          Perfectly reasonable. The biggest issue is whether one wants the subwoofer in the same location as the "mains" . . . because of the different relations to room acoustics the best (or the predetermined) location for the mains is not always best for the sub(s). It's a generic "all-in-one" problem. Of course if the location works for both it's not an issue, but . . .

          A RS180 would work just as well as the Usher over that range, and it's a natural application for active crossover (you should try that right hand side of the PCD spreadsheet sometime ;)), but that would make a different loudspeaker . . .

          I was inspired to do this by building and listening to Jeff B's Dreydel. He sent me an option that uses the RS28 instead of the 27TDFC, and my thoughts naturally drifted to adding a substantial low end to it. I heard the Marcatos by Paul K in Iowa, and they were simply wow. That's the only reason I modeled with the Ushers first. While the woofer and tweeter are set, the mid isn't.

          The RS180 might work, and the RS150 as well, but they'd most likely have to be the 4 Ohm version to reach the required sensitivity. The XO target above was achieved with only .8 Ohms of padding on the RS28 and none on the Usher. The RS180 is a couple dB less sensitive than the Usher. But, the RS180-4 will likely work, with just a touch of padding. Active is not an option on this build. I want this to be a traditional full range 3-way that can be driven with a 250W stereo amp and laugh. I modeled room effects for placement in my particular living room, and while peaks and nulls will be present, the fact that there are two distinct stereo sources for bass to below 20Hz should help smooth out room effects.

          And active set up will happen one day . . . ;)
          R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

          Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


          95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

            Hey Pete, just wanted to offer my opinion that the 8948A is better for the application you have here than the 8945P. I understand why you choose the P, because Zaph has no measurements of the 8948A. I've had multiple computer failures since then, but I might still have my measurements somewhere. I remember the 48A having a bit smoother FR, less of the (presumably) surround resonance bump/dip. It looks more like the 45A without the 6khz breakup. And my distortion data showed essentially a dead heat, 45P might have a tiny edge below 150hz, but from there up they were both incredible and evenly matched.

            About 18 months ago I bought a pair of both drivers, and made a pair of bookshelves with each using the DXT tweeter. The purpose was solely to determine which driver I prefered. After listening to the Usher Tiny Dancers quite a bit at RMAF I figured the 8948A deserved investigation. My subjective impressions were that the 48A is just more neutral, more musical. It has just a bit of a softer delivery without any loss of detail, this bit of softness lets the stage go deeper and wider.

            Either is an incredible driver, the 45P looks meaner But I think the 48A sounds a hair better.
            Vapor Audio

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

              Originally posted by philiparcario View Post
              pete mentioned it would be two boxes.

              I have these as mtm/woofer 3 ways they use active crossovers. the mtm uses pe's bi amp plate the woofer uses a reckhorn crossover.

              drivers are
              1 focal TLR tweeter
              2 focal 7w4411 midwoofers
              nht1259 subwoofer

              crossover points are 120hz

              3000hz

              these cost more but I have a feeling pete's will sound as good.
              Don't meant to thread crap, but how do you like those TLR's? I love my TC120TD5's, once you nail the crossover that is ...
              Vapor Audio

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                Originally posted by DoubleTap View Post
                Hey Pete, just wanted to offer my opinion that the 8948A is better for the application you have here than the 8945P. I understand why you choose the P, because Zaph has no measurements of the 8948A. I've had multiple computer failures since then, but I might still have my measurements somewhere. I remember the 48A having a bit smoother FR, less of the (presumably) surround resonance bump/dip. It looks more like the 45A without the 6khz breakup. And my distortion data showed essentially a dead heat, 45P might have a tiny edge below 150hz, but from there up they were both incredible and evenly matched.

                About 18 months ago I bought a pair of both drivers, and made a pair of bookshelves with each using the DXT tweeter. The purpose was solely to determine which driver I prefered. After listening to the Usher Tiny Dancers quite a bit at RMAF I figured the 8948A deserved investigation. My subjective impressions were that the 48A is just more neutral, more musical. It has just a bit of a softer delivery without any loss of detail, this bit of softness lets the stage go deeper and wider.

                Either is an incredible driver, the 45P looks meaner But I think the 48A sounds a hair better.
                Well, Zaph also has the 8945A as well as the 8836A, all of which would be excellent choices. The 8945A was next on the list for modeling. :D

                I'm also going to look at the Peerless 830883. MarkK's non linear data on the Peerless is absolutely top notch, and PE is carrying them too. I just wish the basket was black . . . but it's not a total deal breaker.

                By the way Ryan, I was hoping to get your feedback on the final voicing. Wanna get to InDIYana?

                8945P



                8945A



                8836A
                R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

                Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


                95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                  Originally posted by Pete Schumacher View Post
                  And active set up will happen one day . . . ;)
                  First step is to pull all the driver leads out to the back of the enclosure and put the crossover(s) in a separate box by the amp. That way the upgrade to active doesn't involve any change to the speakers at all . . . even the cable is in place . . .
                  "It suggests that there is something that is happening in the real system that is not quite captured in the models."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                    Originally posted by deward Hastings View Post
                    first Step Is To Pull All The Driver Leads Out To The Back Of The Enclosure And Put The Crossover(s) In A Separate Box By The Amp. That Way The Upgrade To Active Doesn't Involve Any Change To The Speakers At All . . . Even The Cable Is In Place . . .
                    Get Out Of My Head!!!!!
                    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

                    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


                    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                      Right, the FR I got for the 8948A was very close to the 8945A. I also measured 2 8945P's and got FR data almost identical to Zaph's. Can't go wrong with either though.

                      Those silver baskets are pretty easy to paint btw, I did that to a pair of 830884's and it turned out looking factory. Just leave the backside silver and tape everything off nice.

                      I might be up for InDIYana, but certainly would be available to help with final measurments and tweaking the voicing. I have a ridiculous amount of x-over components, clip leading in small changes in values would be easy, and you wouldn't need to buy all the extras.
                      Vapor Audio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                        Originally posted by DoubleTap View Post
                        Right, the FR I got for the 8948A was very close to the 8945A. I also measured 2 8945P's and got FR data almost identical to Zaph's. Can't go wrong with either though.

                        Those silver baskets are pretty easy to paint btw, I did that to a pair of 830884's and it turned out looking factory. Just leave the backside silver and tape everything off nice.

                        I might be up for InDIYana, but certainly would be available to help with final measurments and tweaking the voicing. I have a ridiculous amount of x-over components, clip leading in small changes in values would be easy, and you wouldn't need to buy all the extras.

                        Awsome, thanks for the offer!!! I've PM'd you.
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                          Pete, what about the ER18? It seems to have gotten a lot of rave lately.

                          "It is only Scrooge McDuck and others with a personality disorder who have money as their goal"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                            Originally posted by jonasz View Post
                            Pete, what about the ER18? It seems to have gotten a lot of rave lately.

                            Yes indeed. That is a candidate I had omitted. I think I have to exclude the Usher for now due to the Vas. And since the Usher and SEAS units almost duplicate each others parameters, I just have to exclude it. The 830883 has half the Vas value and higher Fs. It likes a smaller enclosure better than the other two.

                            I'm torn between using a 6" mid and a 7". The RS150-4 looks like a perfect fit, and I know how it (150-8) sounds in the Dreydel, the HOSS, the Khanspires, and it's wonderful. But it's only a 40W driver while the 830883 handles 100W. That is something to consider when power levels start warming up the coil.

                            What to do . . . what to do . . .
                            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

                            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51


                            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: RSS315HF-4 as the anchor of a 3-way???

                              Originally posted by Pete Schumacher View Post
                              What to do . . . what to do . . .
                              RS180? It sounds as good as (or better than) the 150, has plenty of oomph, and really likes the PE .38 ft cu enclosures (which makes things easier for the non-cabinet-makers who might want to try the design.

                              I know, I know, it seems so . . . pedestrian . . . and doesn't cater to the driver-du-jour crowd . . . but there really isn't anything much, if any, better for under a couple hundred bucks.
                              "It suggests that there is something that is happening in the real system that is not quite captured in the models."

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