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PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

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  • #16
    Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

    Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
    Are you speaking from experience or just guessing? I recently completed a pair of speakers using the PSA veneer from Rockler and there was no bubbling at all from applying the finish. I can't speak to long-term effects yet, but others I've known about haven't had any problems.
    Paul
    Experience ... I'm sure some PSA glues are better than others, but why you'd risk it when backed veneer and contact cement is just as easy and a much more proven solution. I can't imagine any PSA backed veneer having enough adhesion to hold up to my typical finish of 3-4 wipes of a penetrating oil, then a build of whatever hard finish (build, sand, build, sand, etc).

    Pete's fancy cabs that Ed built for him have PSA veneer and he's already got a bubble with no finish. My advice was to heat it lightly with a hair dryer (not an iron) and then press it back down with a scraper. For a finish I'm thinking a single wipe of oil than hand buff with Briwax or similar. But any finish that either penetrates deep, or expands on application then contracts on evaportation is a bad idea. Water based finishes and you're just asking for bubbles.
    Vapor Audio

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    • #17

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      • #18
        Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

        I ran into a minor problem with some cherry PSA veneer recently. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the problem might be related to the fact that the PSA does not create a rigid bond line.

        In my basement workshop I veneered a pair of speaks (Overnight Sensations) and very carefully trimmed and sanded all the edges flush - the edges were "perfect". I then sprayed on a couple coats of solvent based lacquer sanding sealer in the garage and left them in the garage overnight to dry. It happened to be a fairly humid day...

        The next day I noticed that the exposed veneer edges were now standing a smidge proud of the adjacent surfaces that they were perfectly flush with the day before. I suspect that the veneer swelled and grew wider & longer from the humidity or possibly the lacquer, or maybe the substrate (MDF) shrank, but I don't know which. In either case, what was flush is no longer. The veneer doesn't stick out much (maybe .005" or so?), but it's enough to feel with your finger.

        I guess the point of this story is that a rigid bond line (as might be provided by Heat Lok, Cold Bond, urea formaldahyde, etc.) would not have let the veneer "slide" so easily relative to the substrate, and so would have (I suspect) prevented the overhanging veneer condition. "Rigid", of course, is a relative term, but PSA is definitely not rigid.

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        • #19

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          • #20
            Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

            I won't know how well my veneering job with the PSA veneer will hold up over the long haul, but I finished mine with 2 coats of Zinser Seal Coat and 5 coats of satin, wipe-on Minwax polyurethane (no stain, just the light tints of those). After the Seal Coat the veneer had expanded just a bit in the width (cross-grain), like desribed further down this thread, which I sanded down easily, but didn't change again throughout the rest of the finishing process. So far, then, everything is looking quite good (but I do hope I'm not in for a bad surprise a few months or a year or two down the road). For my very first veneering job, I can't imagine any other process of applying veneer to be easier, even if potentially longer-lasting.

            Originally posted by DoubleTap View Post
            Experience ... I'm sure some PSA glues are better than others, but why you'd risk it when backed veneer and contact cement is just as easy and a much more proven solution. I can't imagine any PSA backed veneer having enough adhesion to hold up to my typical finish of 3-4 wipes of a penetrating oil, then a build of whatever hard finish (build, sand, build, sand, etc).

            Pete's fancy cabs that Ed built for him have PSA veneer and he's already got a bubble with no finish. My advice was to heat it lightly with a hair dryer (not an iron) and then press it back down with a scraper. For a finish I'm thinking a single wipe of oil than hand buff with Briwax or similar. But any finish that either penetrates deep, or expands on application then contracts on evaportation is a bad idea. Water based finishes and you're just asking for bubbles.

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            • #21
              Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

              Nothing wrong with that I guess.

              Nice job on the veneer! I can't wait to see them finished!
              Later,
              Wolf

              PS- Marty- You made me laugh there....:D
              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

              *InDIYana event website*

              Photobucket pages:
              http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

              My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

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              • #22
                Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                All the adhesives in this thread are fine.
                It's the implementation specifics that can be problematic.

                PSA's can be more than adequate. The problems with delamination usually are from contamination. The substrate and the adhesive need to be kept immaculately clean. The least bit of contamination (fingerprints anyone?) can cause problems down the road. Buy from a reputable source. Some of it comes from the factory with contamination issues. Sometimes it's on the exterior glue surface, more often it's on the veneer/paper before the glue is applied.
                Some of the PSA's are just bad and won't hold up. They soften under finishes, lose strength/embrittle with time and/or lack tack.
                China knows #$%^ about adhesives! More of the problems with defective products that the company I work for sees are adhesive related than anything else, by an order of magnitude. We buy almost everything from China btw.

                The rubber cement / contact adhesives are fine for backed veneer and because they are applied immediatley prior to use tend to be less problematic regarding contamination.
                Unless the non-flammables have improved in the last 10 years they are inferior to the solvent based. The actual adhesive is identical in both. But the solvents do a better job of getting the adhesive in intimate contact with the material to be glued (they don't "wet out" as well). Particularly on wood/wood composites and metals.
                Incidentally, 3M has some recommended usage restrictions on application of the water borne contact adhesives that don't appear for the solvent based. They know their product.
                Having said that, if proper care is taken, the wb stuff is fine for many tasks. It just won't give as strong a bond as the solvent based stuff.
                ~99%
                Make me an angel that flies from Montgomery
                Make me a poster of an old rodeo
                Just give me one thing that I can hold on to
                To believe in this livin' is just a hard way to go

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                • #23
                  Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                  The Madisound RBRs I finished in September '09 are doing fine so far. I used Cherry PSA veneer from Veneer Supplies. The PSA layer had 3M logo on the backing paper. Applied over MDF with Zinsser white sealer on cut edges.

                  Finished with Minwax wipe on poly.

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                  • #24
                    Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                    I used PSA on a project about 2 years ago and have had no problems. But I almost always use titebond II on the substrate and veneer and then use an old iron set at max for heat, with on old teeshirt to protect the veneer from scorching. I did a subwoofer using the heat/glue method and wound up keeping it out in my garage for 1 year before I brounght it in the house. Even with the serious humididty down here in Houston, it has held up fine for the last two years inside the house.

                    Chris
                    Chris

                    Goofing around since 2000.

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                    • #25
                      Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                      yes, this is the glue i use

                      http://www.homedepot.com/DAP/h_d1/N-...atalogId=10053

                      i use to use 3m but after tring this, this seems to e the same product, if not a little thicker ( better for what i do) and cost half the price
                      Check out my website: www.uberstealthaudio.com.
                      Now offering cnc cut baffles and other speaker cabinet parts

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                      • #26
                        Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                        thought i'd post a little update on the current status of what "inspired" this thread. here's where my interchangeable dragon foal's/b3n's currently stand.

                        sanded with 150 to leave the grain open, cleaned with denatured alcohol, minwax prestain conditioner, single coat of general finishes antique cherry stain, four coats of minwax gloss poly diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits and wiped on. so far the veneer is holding tight and they look great. keeping my fingers crossed that it stays that way.





                        and here's the baffles. two coats of 50/50 titebond II/water on just the roundovers, two coats of the glue/water on the entire baffle, four or five coats of rustoleum high build primer filler, followed by four or five coats of rustoleum textured black. sometimes pictures hide flaws, but i actually think these look better in person than in the picture.

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                        • #27
                          Re: PSA Backed Veneer is Awesome

                          Those look great! You must be very happy with the results, I know I would be to have a project look that nice

                          The PSA-backed veneer has worked out for many people here, I bet it will for you as well. Enjoy.

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