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  • 88 db system, how to get close???

    Hi,

    It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
    I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

    My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

    So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

    Thank's
    J-P

  • #2
    Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

    Originally posted by zoula View Post
    Hi,

    It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
    I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

    My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

    So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

    Thank's
    J-P

    This is pretty easy to accomplish with the dayton rs dome mid/dome tweet and your pick of pro woofer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

      Since it's easy to find a 88db+ tweeter, look into high efficiency woofers and mids. A 94db+ woofer would be a must before baffle step.
      "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

      http://www.diy-ny.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

        Originally posted by zoula View Post
        Hi,

        It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
        I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

        My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

        So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

        Thank's
        J-P
        tmWW or WtMW is typical. Two 8 ohm woofers in parallel (4 ohm load) nets you a +6dB gain in sensitivity. A few years ago, I built my vacuum tube buddy an 8" MtM in 5 cf using a pair of AUDAX carbon fiber woofers and a Vifa horn dome (H26). They had basically no BSC (they WERE floorstanders however) but came in at around 95dB and could reach below 40 Hz.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

          http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...3&postcount=49



          https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8691

          "...this is not a subwoofer" - Jeff Bagby ;)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

            Originally posted by zoula View Post
            Hi,

            It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
            I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

            My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

            So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

            Thank's
            J-P
            500W amps can sound great. And they don't have to be huge either.

            http://classdaudio.com/index.php/cla...ifier-kit.html
            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

              500W amps can sound great.
              Uh yeah, what Pete said. Wolf and I had a fun time a few years back running his high sensitivity WM1 speakers on my Crown XLS402B. They seemed to really like the extra power being available even though the amp was loafing along and it was plenty on the loud side. They just seemed to come alive with the Crown when compared to his regular amp. So I guess what I'm saying is that a high sensitivity design can be quite nice when teamed up with more power than you think you need and that it can sound very nice.

              shawn
              My favorite woofer is a Labrador retriever.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                Yeah- the amp and speakers were BOTH saying, "Is that all you got!?"

                For me- it was all I had! :D

                Man- that was loud.....

                Later,
                Wolf

                (PS- wanna yack?)
                "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                *InDIYana event website*

                Photobucket pages:
                http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                  Call ya in about half of an hour. Got one or two more albums I want to put an ear to before I call it a day.

                  shawn
                  My favorite woofer is a Labrador retriever.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                    Originally posted by shawn_a View Post
                    Call ya in about half of an hour. Got one or two more albums I want to put an ear to before I call it a day.

                    shawn
                    Okay!
                    Later,
                    Wolf
                    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                    *InDIYana event website*

                    Photobucket pages:
                    http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                      Originally posted by zoula View Post
                      Hi,

                      It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
                      That will make it easier if you want to design your own from scratch....
                      Originally posted by zoula View Post
                      I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.
                      82dB, hell, I consider 88dB only marginally reasonable.

                      Originally posted by zoula View Post
                      My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.
                      Here would be my OTTOMH suggestion for a 3 way: AE TD15H/S/X with whatever LF alignment floats your boat, the new AE TD6M and something for HF. The latter depends upon tastes (I like CDs and WGs) but the Fountek NeoPro5i or Beyma TPL150 are other options. Depending upon drier choices and implementation, 93dB/W/m with a nominal 8Ω impedance would be easy.

                      Originally posted by zoula View Post
                      So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

                      Thank's
                      J-P
                      Active helps, but I generally go for the most efficient system I can, provided the compromises are ones I can accept, and use a number of good highish power amps. No dynamic range issues at all and a wide choice of ways to build it (aesthetics).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                        Originally posted by A9X View Post
                        Here would be my OTTOMH suggestion for a 3 way: AE TD15H/S/X with whatever LF alignment floats your boat, the new AE TD6M and something for HF. The latter depends upon tastes (I like CDs and WGs) but the Fountek NeoPro5i or Beyma TPL150 are other options. Depending upon drier choices and implementation, 93dB/W/m with a nominal 8Ω impedance would be easy.
                        I know someone working on that particular three way right now. Only he's not looking for a ribbon, but more likely a high sensitivity dome, like the SB29RDC.
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                          Originally posted by zoula View Post
                          Hi,

                          It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
                          I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

                          My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

                          So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

                          Thank's
                          J-P
                          A high sensitivity, full-range, 3-way will be HUGE. Any system with 93dB sensitivity, and true 30Hz extension is going to be a fairly hefty system, weigh a lot, and require a ladder to reach the top . . . ;)

                          Seriously though, if you want full range in a reasonable size, you have to pay a penalty in sensitivity. I just built a 3-way using a 12" Dayton Reference series sub, the ScanSpeak 15W as a mid, and the Dayton RS28 for a tweeter. Mid band sensitivity is right around 86dB, and with 250W at my disposal presently, dynamics are not an issue.

                          R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                          Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                          95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                          "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                            Originally posted by zoula View Post
                            Hi,

                            It's been a few years now that i'm interested in loudspeaker DIY I've made about 5 or 6 loudspeaker from scatch, matching woofers and tweeters, measuring, simulating, and building. They all sound great for what they are design for. The one thing that I realize over the years is that low sensitive system just don't make the cut.
                            I listen to a lot of classical music and the range of dynamic is huge. It don't make sense to buy a 500W amp to drive a 82db loudspeaker, Plus powerful amp usually don't sound right.

                            My next project will be a 3 way I'm done with 2 way and I need more change. I want to keep it as simple as possible. But I find it hard to reach a good sensitivity without having a loudspeaker load that will fried my amp. Plus I don't whant to us a lader to climb on top of my loudspeaker. I just want a simple 3 way.

                            So, How do you generally deal with loudspeaker sensitivity. Is it an important goal to reach or you just deal with it with your amps...???

                            Thank's
                            J-P
                            many easy ways to do this. buy a pair of these.


                            http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=309-177 350

                            then think 2 way plus you can cross at 120 or 140hz

                            use this

                            http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=F-1Stereo 124


                            http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-956


                            use these 600 bucks. they will play have more dynamic range if you cross higher 100 hz to 150 hz.

                            yeah it is a 1k setup and you need an amp but for music and stereo it should be good. also you have an easy load on your amp 8ohms and it will handle more then 80 watts rms because bass duties are are the stereo subs. all you need to do extra for diy is maybe refinish the subs.

                            http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=261-612

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 88 db system, how to get close???

                              Since the vast majority of power is needed for the lowest octaves, separately powered subs will probably be the easiest way to get there -- especially if you can run some kind of high pass to your mains. I've run my LECBOS + Autotuba system cleanly to ridiculous levels with the 50 WPC Dayton T-Amp on the mains.

                              Peerless & Tangband offer some very good, reasonably priced, high efficiency mids - the trade off is usually lower Xmax and bottom end. So bi-amping the subs will probably get you there for the best $$ investment.
                              Lou's Speaker Site [speakers.lonesaguaro.com]
                              "Different" is objective, "better" is subjective. Taste is not a provable fact.
                              Where are you John Galt? I may not be worthy, but I'm ready.

                              Comment

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