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  • After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

    Yeah- I know I didn't do my walkaround as soon as typical, but I wanted to think about it for a bit.... Be advised these are to be seen as constructive criticisms, and no insults should be implied.

    A lot of projects and participants in the event were improved in some sort.

    Arlis (Lowell) came a long way since last year! He really stepped it up learning RM/PCD and had a lot more technical detail than he had last year. While the MT portion could sometimes be a tad forward, I think Lowell nailed this one for most music. Well done! :D(Maybe Dirk should see how you did your mid...:rolleyes

    Matt got his Shenanigans a lot more listenable, even if they still need a bit more refinement in horn level and being a bit harsh. Still- they sounded a lot better!

    Johnny got a FR rig- and those Driscoll were stellar.

    Tom came outta left field with that 0.75"/8" combo Etude, and set us all on our ears with surprise.:eek: That has no right to blnd that well!

    Marty smoothed out his sound, as those Buccaneers were very well integrated, even if I woulda left the tweeters black...:rolleyes:

    Maynard managed to do better than the Tzu-Jans with the Malbecs, and that says a lot- I have to say the finish is gorgeous! I think a *touch* more bottom end would've pleased me a bit more though.

    Ed L.- I believe I told you how I thought of them, so I'll leave it at that. Especially since you see them as a 'work in progress'.

    Robert- woulda loved to hear them...

    "Brian"- the PMHE were much better than I was expecting, especially for a DQ25, which I don't normally care much for. Sounds like you dialed them in nicely.

    PWR-Ryder- your 'Rushers' seemed a good start. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the midbass was lacking in output. Bass was there a bit more, and the midrange was fine; maybe you have it too heavily stuffed, not enough BSC applied, or maybe tuned too low for that box. If that doesn't help with the tonal balance on the tweeter being a bit hot, I'd add another ohm or 2 to the series L-pad resistor, or strap a 20-25 ohm acrossed it if there is not a parallel resistor present.

    Paul K- I will say this- Sonatellos were better than the Dayton event, but the brass in your selection was flat and relatively unnatural. That is not normally the case coming from something you bring. I'm sure you can fix that right up....

    Dan- I still think the Blades are well integrated, and the soundfield seems big enough. But- I didn't find them very 'immersive'. The soundstage was kinda small. That's not to say the design was unbalanced or unextended, as that was still all there. They did sound better at Dayton, so it could be the room.

    Pete- It seems you and I are getting better at this hobby... I thought your Byzantiums were very nicely balanced and integrated. Nothing stuck out as wrong or emphasized, and they were almost 'effortless' to entertain. Nice job!
    (your moshing alone was appreciated during the design mentioned below...:rolleyes

    Undef- Playing some Deftones on the Tarkus really cleaned out the wax, and they were well-composed doing so. I think these are better than the Aethers, and more 'versatile' than the Sunflowers. Nice!

    DoubleTap- I love me some Mappa Burl, so your aesthetics were great to me. Came down to 'big' or 'spatially-defined' in terms of on/off rear tweeter for me. Good both ways!

    Chris Roemer- good to finally meet you, and I think your project was a bargain. I still think maybe the tweeter was crying for a coil and another ohm being driven that hard though. Still- rather easy and cool.

    PanheadMatt- Your WG's seemed a bit muted in the mids for my taste, and maybe slightly lean on the bass in the Iowa room. It also seemed as though tweeter 'air' was lacking. My 2c...

    Ron E- I was absolutely speechless (:eek::eek about how pristine the Neo3's came out in the Krystals, and you picked the perfect name for them.

    Tom Bond- the Daisho prolly suffered a bit of room neglect in Iowa, as they were better supported in Dayton. As you said, you're definitely close to where you want to be.

    Wayne- I guess your cheap-tweeter/money-woofer/hardwood cabinets does work well. :rolleyes: Glad you and they survived the impact. Pun intended. Nice to meet you!

    Todd- you didn't need my help. Onsei was good! :D

    Jake Parsons- Much better than the last MTM's, but the zebra look still isn't my cup of tea.

    Curt- I gave you my opinion when asked for it, and we do agree on the Aviatrix impression. Nuff said there!

    And lastly- thanks to Doug and family for hosting and all the trouble it causes, and for allowing me to use the crowd as guinea pigs this year. Thanks to the guinea pigs for not squealing and running away! :D

    I had a lot of fun, as well as others, and I hope to attend again next year!

    Short and sweet,
    Wolf
    "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
    "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
    "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
    "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

    *InDIYana event website*

    Photobucket pages:
    http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

    My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

  • #2
    Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

    Wolf,

    Thanks for the feedback. I always look forward to the next time we get together.

    Thanks as well for the great effort you put into your presentation. You have whetted my appetite and I hope to hear more soon.
    Mongo only pawn in game of life
    ____
    Ed

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

      Thanks for sharing that Wolf

      Originally posted by Wolf View Post
      Curt- I gave you my opinion when asked for it, and we do agree on the Aviatrix impression. Nuff said there!
      Wolf
      Did you have the same impressions as at MWAF/Dayton 2010. Are there any further impressions you can share with the masses?

      Cheers

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

        Thanks Wolf! I'm glad you enjoyed them.

        Make no mistake, your contribution to the group in threaded musings as well as your blog post summary of crossover design considerations have helped me and many others. Thanks again. I look forward to next year.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

          Being so far north (we had our first flakes of snow yesterday), I love reading the follow up to these events.

          Its great to read everyone's personal observations about how the speakers sound: tonality, imaging etc.

          What would make these observations so much more useful to everyone would be to take at least one frequency response measure of each speaker, on axis, and post it. This could be done very quickly with a mic on boom stand at the wait nearby. I think alot of the off axis response can be inferred from an experienced observer.

          Having this data will allow us to see trends over time of how different frequency response shapes are perceived.

          Curious, why aren't these response measures taken at these meets?


          Dave

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

            Originally posted by DDF View Post
            Being so far north (we had our first flakes of snow yesterday), I love reading the follow up to these events.

            Its great to read everyone's personal observations about how the speakers sound: tonality, imaging etc.

            What would make these observations so much more useful to everyone would be to take at least one frequency response measure of each speaker, on axis, and post it. This could be done very quickly with a mic on boom stand at the wait nearby. I think alot of the off axis response can be inferred from an experienced observer.

            Having this data will allow us to see trends over time of how different frequency response shapes are perceived.

            Curious, why aren't these response measures taken at these meets?


            Dave
            There was no way I was going to move those speakers to a side room for a response measurement. :eek:

            Better would be to take the plot when they're in place on stage, at a listening position, to get an idea of what it's doing to a person's ear. A quick burst of pink noise to start or end the demo for that purpose would do the trick.

            I've posted actual response plots for the individual drivers as well as the system and simulation from the individual drivers plots in the build thread for my entry.
            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

              Wolf, I can't agree with you at all, at least not in listening to them at home at other brass pieces and brassy parts of music. Which track were you least satisfied with brass-wise? There was a lot of brass in the 3rd track ("classical") and the 4th track was a Harry James cut, plus the last track was a Wind Symphony playing a Sousa march. If it was the Harry James track, that came from a Sheffield Lab demo CD and the original recording might be a little long in the tooth.

              Actually I've been conducting a detailed comparison between the Sonatellos and canTiLenas because only one pair gets to stay in the living room as my personal "reference". The Sonatello is likely going to be the winner especially because, IMO, it reproduces the highs and upper midrange more naturally than the canTiLena.

              I'm glad you liked them better than at the MWAF but with the undemanding musical cuts you heard on them there, they didn't get a fair demo in comparison to other speakers in the same class. Still, I did make some significant improvements since MWAF (in areas that were not audible with the MWAF music selections).
              Paul

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

                There was no way I was going to move those speakers to a side room for a response measurement. :eek:
                Don't think you have to. With a long mic cord, a PC based measurement system at the side and a mic on a boom stand, just move the boom in front at 6' away, take a quick measurement, that's it. It would take less than a minute per speaker.

                Results could be posted both quasi anechoic above 250 Hz, and "in room" (albeit one location) to get a hint of low end reach, but that's more than good enough and the effort is minimal.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

                  Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                  Wolf, I can't agree with you at all, at least not in listening to them at home at other brass pieces and brassy parts of music. Which track were you least satisfied with brass-wise? There was a lot of brass in the 3rd track ("classical") and the 4th track was a Harry James cut, plus the last track was a Wind Symphony playing a Sousa march. If it was the Harry James track, that came from a Sheffield Lab demo CD and the original recording might be a little long in the tooth.

                  Actually I've been conducting a detailed comparison between the Sonatellos and canTiLenas because only one pair gets to stay in the living room as my personal "reference". The Sonatello is likely going to be the winner especially because, IMO, it reproduces the highs and upper midrange more naturally than the canTiLena.

                  I'm glad you liked them better than at the MWAF but with the undemanding musical cuts you heard on them there, they didn't get a fair demo in comparison to other speakers in the same class. Still, I did make some significant improvements since MWAF (in areas that were not audible with the MWAF music selections).
                  Paul
                  I have to agree with you Paul. I thought both yours and Maynard's entries handled the mids and highs impeccably. I would have a tough time choosing between the two for which I liked better. Both had detailed and clean bass reproduction, clear and defined mids and highs. I thought your tracks came across beautifully, lacking nothing.

                  I did notice that the overall balance of a system changed quite a bit as you moved around the room. The further back you got, the more the highs were attenuated.
                  R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                  Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                  95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                  "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

                    Thanks Wolf. It's good to have some outside feedback to validate what you think you've accomplished. These little speakers have been a joy to listen to.

                    I thought the name was a good fit in light of the sound quality (especially the Neos) but it was really a play on the "smooth as glass" finish.

                    I don't know how you keep track of all these speakers. Do you take notes? With 25 or so pairs of speakers the day turned into a blur to me. I'm notoriously bad with names and especially bad with names in a crowd. All I can say is I didn't hear a bad system all day and I thought more than a few were excellent.

                    Ron
                    C-Note Iron Driver Build
                    The Lydias
                    The Cherry π's
                    The Champs - Iron Driver 2015 Entry
                    My Projects Page

                    The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. - Neil deGrasse Tyson
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

                      Thanks a bunch, Pete, for the compliments. I agree with you regarding Maynard's Malbecs. I liked your Byzantiums very much, especially their prodigious bass, not to mention the cabinet. Dan thought your cabinets had a high SAF; they're large but don't appear large. Dan's Blades came across nicely except the bass didn't get a fair shake due to the electronics setup having been changed from what Dan and Doug worked out at Doug's house Friday night.
                      Paul

                      I have to agree with you Paul. I thought both yours and Maynard's entries handled the mids and highs impeccably. I would have a tough time choosing between the two for which I liked better. Both had detailed and clean bass reproduction, clear and defined mids and highs. I thought your tracks came across beautifully, lacking nothing.

                      I did notice that the overall balance of a system changed quite a bit as you moved around the room. The further back you got, the more the highs were attenuated.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

                        It was a middle cut, not the first or last, I can recall that. It is possible it was the recording as I did not know them personally. Knowing what you normally bring along as music, I found that a bit odd.

                        We can agree to disagree on the second note- I would not give up the Cantilenas at all. That's my opinion.

                        Part of the issue with me and the SB dimple drivers thus far is that they really don't engage me. They don't take me into the music, and their overall sound is rather 'flat' or 2-dimensional. I know Todd's 'Onsei' made the SB29neo sound like it should, or at least it did in my opinion. Otherwise I've preferred the larger faced unit. The PMHE was a good job with the midbasses, so my opinion may change with those as well. It is all a matter of design anyway.

                        Later,
                        Wolf

                        PS- for those wanting previous info of my thoughts, I usually write up the event a couple days after. Look up 'virtual walkaround' and you'll find my Dayton/MWAF this year.
                        "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                        "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                        "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                        "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                        *InDIYana event website*

                        Photobucket pages:
                        http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                        My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: After a week of thought- My Iowa thoughts...

                          Thanks for your kind words Ben. I agree on at least two fronts. The Malbecs are well beyond the TzuJans in quality. Makes me wish there had been a contest. :-). The bass is great quality, but a bit attenuated by the coil DCR. I needed an 8.2mh coil and I had one at .36 and one at 1.56. I chose the 1.56 because the low DCR had a bit too much bass bloom. Now that there is time, I'll seek something at about .8 or 1.0 if I can find one.

                          Now, what about next year???!? Gads.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

                            The 2nd and 6th cuts were Diana Krall and Michael Blube' respectively. The 1st cut was from a tone poem, Tintagel, for full orchestra by Sir Arnold Bax. The 3rd cut was by Richard Danielpour, a living, breathing American composer, titled Anima Mundi. Danielpour's compositions use full orchestras featuring brass and percussion. The 4th cut, as I said previously, was by Harry James. The 5th cut was by Pablo de Sarasate, a version of the opera Carmen, played by a solo violinist with orchestral accompaniment. The last track I mentioned was a Sousa march. I'm curious why you thought these odd, considering my preference for symphonic music?

                            As far as canTiLenas versus Sonatello, in direct comparison the canTiLenas have a slight tendency to "sweeten" the sound, which might be advantageous when listening to not so good recordings. OTOH when an instrument, like violin or trumpet, is intentionally played to be bold and aggressive, it should sound that way, which is what the Sonatellos do for me. My wife is accomplished on violin, viola and piano, and in my younger years, I was pretty good on the trumpet. We still have all four of those instruments and, therefore, ready access to how they really sound (although my embouchure is pretty much shot now and my air capacity is quite a bit diminished from my younger years).

                            The SB neo dimple dome tweeter is a very good tweeter, but if you're not careful with the crossover design it can make violins and some percussion instruments sound unnaturally harsh and/or smeared.

                            For me, this SB tweeter does exactly the opposite of what you're describing. I'm really taken back sometimes when I hear a triangle or other percussion instrument sounding like it's coming from way back in the orchestra where it usually is located.

                            I was somewhat disappointed in the Onsei from their bass boom (and I'm sure Todd was also), and that distracted me from giving them a fair evaluation.
                            Paul



                            Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                            It was a middle cut, not the first or last, I can recall that. It is possible it was the recording as I did not know them personally. Knowing what you normally bring along as music, I found that a bit odd.

                            We can agree to disagree on the second note- I would not give up the Cantilenas at all. That's my opinion.

                            Part of the issue with me and the SB dimple drivers thus far is that they really don't engage me. They don't take me into the music, and their overall sound is rather 'flat' or 2-dimensional. I know Todd's 'Onsei' made the SB29neo sound like it should, or at least it did in my opinion. Otherwise I've preferred the larger faced unit. The PMHE was a good job with the midbasses, so my opinion may change with those as well. It is all a matter of design anyway.

                            Later,
                            Wolf

                            PS- for those wanting previous info of my thoughts, I usually write up the event a couple days after. Look up 'virtual walkaround' and you'll find my Dayton/MWAF this year.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Hmmm, flat brass?

                              Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                              It was a middle cut, not the first or last, I can recall that. It is possible it was the recording as I did not know them personally. Knowing what you normally bring along as music, I found that a bit odd.

                              We can agree to disagree on the second note- I would not give up the Cantilenas at all. That's my opinion.

                              Part of the issue with me and the SB dimple drivers thus far is that they really don't engage me. They don't take me into the music, and their overall sound is rather 'flat' or 2-dimensional. I know Todd's 'Onsei' made the SB29neo sound like it should, or at least it did in my opinion. Otherwise I've preferred the larger faced unit. The PMHE was a good job with the midbasses, so my opinion may change with those as well. It is all a matter of design anyway.

                              Later,
                              Wolf

                              PS- for those wanting previous info of my thoughts, I usually write up the event a couple days after. Look up 'virtual walkaround' and you'll find my Dayton/MWAF this year.
                              Did you think this of my implementation of these tweeters as well in Ft. Wayne? I know, I put on the spot, didn't I. As a very low distortion tweeter it is not splashy or tizzy, but it seems to sound very natural when done right. IMO.

                              Jeff
                              Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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