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  • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

    All business with the Aurora aside (and it still is really an excellent design), I do have another thing to add to my writeup above, which I somehow forgot about until now.

    I have to say that the disc that DoubleTap put together for demonstrating his Vapor Breeze model rightly became the favored demo disc of the day. I felt that the standard set of tracks chosen for the event's listening sessions didn't represent the best sampling of source material for truly showing off what a speaker is capable of, and I would rather have had DoubleTap's disc if I were demonstrating a project that day. This is the only area I would like to see improved upon next year. The Vapor demo disc had only the most top-shelf source material.

    I would like to see a track listing from the Vapor disc if one would be forthcoming.
    Best Regards,

    Rory Buszka

    Taterworks Audio

    "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

    If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

    Comment


    • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

      Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
      All business with the Aurora aside (and it still is really an excellent design), I do have another thing to add to my writeup above, which I somehow forgot about until now.

      I have to say that the disc that DoubleTap put together for demonstrating his Vapor Breeze model rightly became the favored demo disc of the day. I felt that the standard set of tracks didn't represent the best sampling of source material for truly showing off what a speaker is capable of, and I would rather have had DoubleTap's disc if I were demonstrating a project that day. This is the only area I would like to see improved upon next year. The Vapor demo disc had only the most top-shelf source material.

      I would like to see a track listing from the Vapor disc if one would be forthcoming.
      I posted most of the sources of that track a few posts back. I just don't know the who sang "In the Nick of Time" yet.

      Thanks for the feedback on that test track. It was my edit, from mostly Ryan's large supply of FLAC. That was my third attempt at creating 10 minutes to "show off" with great source material. I could make any number of 10 minute tracks. There's just so much well recorded stuff to choose from, that can also be different than what folks are used to hearing. That's one of the reasons I love the DIYs, is to be exposed to new music.

      Dan Neubecker's set to demo the Contrapesso was also very good stuff. He has a knack for picking the top shelf cuts himself. Those are the kind of tracks that really aid in voicing the crossover, just right.

      I could do something like that again for Iowa.
      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

      Comment


      • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

        Originally posted by dlneubec View Post
        Thanks, Ryan and Paul. That's exactly what I was going for. I wanted them to look like a contemporary piece of sculpture. In fact, I asked my son-in-laws opinion of the design (masters is in art, specializes in sculpture) and he loved the look. I knew they would not be for everyone however and fully expected the Worst WAF vote.

        The rest of you guys just have no taste!:p
        FWIW- I didn't place you anwhere on the HM list. Still- that lavender thing....
        Otherwise I find them very interesting to the eyeballs.

        Later,
        Wolf
        "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
        "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
        "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
        "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

        *InDIYana event website*

        Photobucket pages:
        http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

        My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

        Comment


        • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

          I'm not sure you meant to say that Bogdan's Catalina speakers won at this year's MWAF, but if you did, you're mistaken. The Catalinas came in second to my Cavatinas in the over-$200 category at the 2011 MWAF, and I'm pretty sure this was the first time Bodgan entered them at MWAF.
          Paul

          Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
          I now have to qualify this statement based on the following:





          I now feel a little co-opted, since it was not revealed at the Chicago DIY event that the Auroras ("Mini-Byzy") would become a commercial product. I exempted the Vapor Breeze from my ranking of 'favorite design' because they are a commercial product, and as such we're not likely to see the design details (crossover, cabinet internals) published for the benefit of the community. My pick for 'favorite project' of Chicago DIY 2011 is now the CJD Ansonicas, since they are genuinely a DIY effort (with publicly viewable cabinet drawings and crossover schematics), and not available commercially.

          This is like having Bogdan's Catalinas taking home first place at the DIY Dayton event and then suddenly showing up in a review on 6moons.com as a commercial product at $22,000/pr. The question then becomes whether it was ever the intention of the designer to make the design publicly available.

          Comment


          • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

            Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
            I'm not sure you meant to say that Bogdan's Catalina speakers won at this year's MWAF, but if you did, you're mistaken. The Catalinas came in second to my Cavatinas in the over-$200 category at the 2011 MWAF, and I'm pretty sure this was the first time Bodgan entered them at MWAF.
            Paul
            Ok, maybe I mis-remembered, but that doesn't deprive my point of its impact. I heard the Catalinas at MWAF, and enjoyed getting to sit in the center judge's chair after the show and really listen 'into' them. I should say that I really don't begrudge Bogdan for taking his skills into the professional realm. The Catalinas were truly excellent speakers, and Bogdan has a couple decades of experience in speaker design, so I admire his enterprising spirit. I just don't think that commercial products belong in DIY events without a clear preface to the audience that they are listening to a commercial product with a particular monetary value assigned, and preferably with the retail value being disclosed. In the case of the Vapor Breeze, they are priced at $1249/pr, and the Vapor Aurora are priced at $2695/pr, which admittedly are very good prices for the product categories represented.

            (Sidebar: I've said this before, but I still think Ryan is still selling his business and products short by pricing them so far below comparable offerings in the market. No hard feelings are meant by this. I want to see him be successful and I think his products have what it takes to compete in the high end without having to sell based almost entirely on price. The potential pitfall with his approach is that when he has to raise his prices to sustain his business, the customer may perceive this as a 'bait-and-switch'. Ryan may disagree, and he's certainly free to; these are just my observations, and I'm sure his customers aren't complaining. I just think that it's important to run a business in a sustainable way from the very outset rather than having to make large adjustments later to the pricing structure that run the risk of alienating the customer. I'm not saying Vapor Sound needs to charge Magico or Wilson Audio prices but they need to be fully realistic and support not only the current mode of operation of the business, but some level of growth as well.)
            Best Regards,

            Rory Buszka

            Taterworks Audio

            "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

            If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

            Comment


            • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

              Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
              I have to say that the disc that DoubleTap put together for demonstrating his Vapor Breeze model rightly became the favored demo disc of the day. I felt that the standard set of tracks chosen for the event's listening sessions didn't represent the best sampling of source material for truly showing off what a speaker is capable of, and I would rather have had DoubleTap's disc if I were demonstrating a project that day. This is the only area I would like to see improved upon next year. The Vapor demo disc had only the most top-shelf source material.
              You are 100% correct, Rory. I guess it's a personal issue I sometimes have with "critical listening" events, both DIY and commercial. that is, people tend to play show off material through their speakers, which is not the same as something you would listen to to critically evaluate the speakers.

              I have two problems with this "show off" practice. First, it can be deceiving. It's like if basketball teams were going to hire a player, but they could only watch him slam dunk--they have no idea if he can dribble or pass the ball.

              Second, "audiophile-grade recordings" are often pretty boring (there's a lot of verrry slow jazz with female singer). Not always, mind you. I mean, Blue Man Group and Hans Zimmer can be exciting, but it's still not what I listen to in my natural listening environments. It's candy. But what about the bread and butter?

              I mean, if you ever take a class in pro audio, the first thing they tell you to do when learning how to EQ a room or find problems in a mix is to listen to a song you're very familiar with. Now I know that people weren't necessarily familiar with the tunes I chose, but I do think that they represent a more "mainstream" style of recording--which is what most speakers spend most of their time playing. Additionally, Toole and Olive have statistically proven that complex music is the most effective for critical listening--but this is the antithesis to most "audiophile-grade" recordings as well.

              (But perhaps my track choices bit me in the a$$ for this event. People got tired of their ears being sliced by the brass in "Malaguena," for instance--which was its intended purpose.)

              However, upon further reflection, I can understand that maybe these kind of special events people just want to feast on candy for a weekend. Maybe we don't have to be critical; we can just chill out and have a good time :D
              Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?

              Paul Carmody's DIY Audio Projects
              Twitter: @undefinition1

              Comment


              • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                FWIW, I tried very hard to select music to demo my speakers. I went through CD after CD. But, I kept ruling selections out because they weren't complex enough to challenge the speakers, or they had fun bass which I didn't think would play well without the sub in that room, or blah blah blah. I gave up in favor of using the event music.

                At the three DIY event's I've been to, at all three people complained about the music selection. It is a no win task. I appreciate Paul trying.


                Oh and Paul, Blue Man Group is in my regular rotation and I enjoy quite a bit.. :D
                - Ryan

                CJD Ochocinco ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center
                CJD In-Khan-Neatos - A Dayton RS180/RS150/RS28 In/On Wall MTW

                Comment


                • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                  Originally posted by Paul Carmody View Post
                  You are 100% correct, Rory. I guess it's a personal issue I sometimes have with "critical listening" events, both DIY and commercial. that is, people tend to play show off material through their speakers, which is not the same as something you would listen to to critically evaluate the speakers.

                  I have two problems with this "show off" practice. First, it can be deceiving. It's like if basketball teams were going to hire a player, but they could only watch him slam dunk--they have no idea if he can dribble or pass the ball.

                  Second, "audiophile-grade recordings" are often pretty boring (there's a lot of verrry slow jazz with female singer). Not always, mind you. I mean, Blue Man Group and Hans Zimmer can be exciting, but it's still not what I listen to in my natural listening environments. It's candy. But what about the bread and butter?

                  I mean, if you ever take a class in pro audio, the first thing they tell you to do when learning how to EQ a room or find problems in a mix is to listen to a song you're very familiar with. Now I know that people weren't necessarily familiar with the tunes I chose, but I do think that they represent a more "mainstream" style of recording--which is what most speakers spend most of their time playing. Additionally, Toole and Olive have statistically proven that complex music is the most effective for critical listening--but this is the antithesis to most "audiophile-grade" recordings as well.

                  (But perhaps my track choices bit me in the a$$ for this event. People got tired of their ears being sliced by the brass in "Malaguena," for instance--which was its intended purpose.)

                  However, upon further reflection, I can understand that maybe these kind of special events people just want to feast on candy for a weekend. Maybe we don't have to be critical; we can just chill out and have a good time :D
                  Well, here's how I see it (and I think you'd appreciate my honest opinion more than conviction-less platitudes): A speaker that makes a good recording sound bad is a poorly-designed speaker. A speaker that makes a bad recording sound good (however that is achieved) is being untruthful, and is missing the point because it is no longer an effective tool for assessing a recording. But a speaker that sounds good with good recordings is doing everything that it should. A speaker that sounds bad with bad recordings won't necessarily sound good with good recordings, but a speaker that sounds good with good recordings and bad with bad recordings (as long as it doesn't sound much worse than other 'good' speakers when playing bad recordings) is being truthful to the recording. I think there's a place for a scuzzy recording or two in the listening list, but the speaker will be more challenged by a high-quality recording with the quality benchmark being 'real' sounds (particularly those that we are most familiar with). That's why I don't really try to evaluate a speaker by playing electronica-style or known synthesized music through it.

                  With the standard recordings, I was focused on the 'task' of listening, but with DoubleTap's recordings when played through the best speakers of the day, I felt spirited away by the experience rather than tasked with critical listening. I think that both types of listening have their place, and anything that would disturb that suspension of disbelief would be counter to the goal of high-fidelity reproduction.

                  These are all just my opinions, but listening enjoyment is a subjective thing.
                  Best Regards,

                  Rory Buszka

                  Taterworks Audio

                  "The work of the individual still remains the spark which moves mankind ahead, even more than teamwork." - Igor I. Sikorsky

                  If it works, but you don't know why it works, then you haven't done any engineering.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                    Originally posted by Taterworks View Post
                    (Sidebar: I will say that I still think Ryan is still selling his business and products short by pricing them so far below comparable offerings in the market. No hard feelings are meant by this. I want to see him be successful and I think his products have what it takes to compete in the high end without having to sell based almost entirely on price. The problem with his approach is that when he has to raise his prices to sustain his business, the customer may perceive this as a 'bait-and-switch'. Ryan may disagree, and he's certainly free to, and I'm sure his customers aren't complaining. I just think that it's important to run a business in a sustainable way from the very outset rather than having to make large adjustments later to the pricing structure that run the risk of alienating the customer. I'm not saying Vapor Sound needs to charge Magico or Wilson Audio prices but they need to be fully realistic and support not only the current mode of operation of the business, but some level of growth as well. At higher levels of execution, the R&D will no longer be as affordable as it is right now.)
                    When you compare business models to the vast majority of commercial offerings, like Wilson, B&W, etc. to what Ryan is doing, it's an apples and oranges thing. More realistic is to compare what Jim Salk is doing to what Ryan is doing; a direct to consumer high end speaker shop. You don't have the dealer markup for inventory, etc., but you do have a build to order mindset from the customer and builder.

                    In that respect, when you look at the Cirrus, which when loaded with the options that all his customers seem to want, the price reaches $5000 rather quickly. Now, put that up against Jim's V3 and you're at the same price point. Believe it or not, there's actual, real profit he's making, just like Jim. That's really who Ryan is looking at as his business model. It seems to be working for Jim, and no reason it can't for others, including Ryan. The next set he's working on is a 3-way version of his Cirrus, that will sell close to $10,000, up there with the Soundscape series Jim is offering.

                    Ryan's got a backlog of orders for both Breeze and Cirrus right now too. And believe it or not, there are at least two individuals who've already ponied up for the non-existent 3-ways, based solely on audio forum testimony from other customers who have Ryan's Cirrus.

                    Attending RMAF was a real ear opener, with all the very "high end" stuff all over the place, most of which was pretty much only OK sonically. Some stuff really stood out, and it wasn't always the five figure systems either. ALL the high dollar stuff, good or not, had the fit and finish to match. But some of the really high dollar stuff, while looking good, didn't have the cabinetry basics to go along with it, nor the sonic goods to complete the package. Of course, some had it all, but they were few and far between, and cost quite a bit more than Ryan is seeking. The Cirrus can stand toe to toe with most stuff that costs double, triple, and sometimes even 10 times what he's charging, like the Magico or YG Acoustics Kipod II. He could charge more, sure, and maybe that would make more sense.

                    If it ever gets to the point that he can't keep up, then the law of supply and demand takes over, and he either charges more for them to slow the orders, or owners could easily turn around and sell theirs for double or triple what they paid, if some other 1%'er doesn't feel like waiting in line for Ryan to build one to order. Now, wouldn't that be an awful problem to have . . .
                    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                      Alrighty then- what did people think about what I played?

                      I've not heard inquiry in either direction....but I did see some fellers in the crowd singing along to the Lyle Lovett selection. :D

                      I thought both sets were applicable, but I felt that all should have played at least 2-3 of them to have relative comparison heard.

                      Later,
                      Wolf
                      "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                      "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                      "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                      "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                      *InDIYana event website*

                      Photobucket pages:
                      http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

                      My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
                      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

                      Comment


                      • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                        I just don't know the who sang "In the Nick of Time" yet.
                        Heh. Well, I'm assuming since nobody recognized it, it wasn't Bonnie Raitt. I often find that when looking for a song I don't know, if I can remember a distinctive lyric or two, Google usually helps me nail it pretty quick.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                          Originally posted by ---k--- View Post
                          FWIW, I tried very hard to select music to demo my speakers. I went through CD after CD. But, I kept ruling selections out because they weren't complex enough to challenge the speakers, or they had fun bass which I didn't think would play well without the sub in that room, or blah blah blah. I gave up in favor of using the event music.

                          At the three DIY event's I've been to, at all three people complained about the music selection. It is a no win task. I appreciate Paul trying.


                          Oh and Paul, Blue Man Group is in my regular rotation and I enjoy quite a bit.. :D
                          That is a very true statement. I think it mostly has to do with hearing a selection so many times that it becomes tiresome. That's why I never pick a song I love for one of these things.
                          Doug
                          http://dpeterson.home.mchsi.com/

                          I just checked and my "give a damn" is broke :D

                          Comment


                          • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                            Hi Guys,

                            FWIW, regarding entries that use proprietary crossovers, it's not the 1st time and the simple way to eliminate the concerns is to simply announce that during the presentation. Since 2003, there have been speakers from or crossovers designed by Selah Audio (Rick Craig), Jim Salk, John Krevesky, Wayne Wendal (851's), G&R Research (Danny Richie) and probably more. These have all been designs that were not free to the DIY community but most if not all are available in kit form.

                            Hosting a DIY event is an incredible amount of work, time and up front cost. I commend Paul for hosting a successful event. I wish I could have been there.

                            Jim

                            Comment


                            • Re: Chicago DIY 2011

                              Wolf, I thought your soundtrack was good and offered a nice idea of how the speakers would sound for people's different tastes.

                              I was surprised by how few people brought their own CDs. I'm a firm believer that a speaker should be designed to your tastes. But a general CD is good to get a good idea of how speaker A compares to speaker B.

                              If I do design a nice enough speaker for next years meet, I hope to play 5 minutes of the "general" cd then put on a CD that represents the taste I set out for the speaker.
                              Last edited by iLovPieNCake; 11-07-2011, 09:34 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Chicago DIY 2011


                                It was only after getting to hear the first prototype cabinet, that Ryan offered to put up Ed's cabinetry via Vapor. It's cabinetry worthy of a commercial product, as you saw. Ed put in a lot of time developing the method for making two nearly identical cabinets that would be extremely difficult for any DIY'er to replicate.
                                He spent a significant amount of time with me explaining how those were made. Very detailed explanation, showed me photos and did some pen and paper explanations. Enough where I completely understood the process and could probably recreate them, or do some other type of similar design.

                                He also explained the commercial aspirations of the group for that project, and I told him it probably wasn't a great idea to sit there and tell me everything I needed to know to do the design, but it never phased him. Even offered to let me come to visit his shop and see how it was done in person.

                                Great guy and smart.

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