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  • Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

    Hey guys, I have been lurking around the site for years and Im finally at a point where I want to build a custom car audio system(Please move if this is wrong forum . I have always been into car audio and typically run U.S. Amps, Old school Fosgate amps, and old school Soundstream amps. For door speakers I have for the most part ran MB Quart. I want to build a really clean and clear sounding set of door speakers. I have a 2002 4door Accord and I only want to run speakers in the front if possible(no rear deck). I like tweeters that are crisp and have a little sizzle to them. My MB's were good for sizzle but lacking in mid/midbass. I want to create a setup where the door/front speakers could stand alone(similar to home setup) if listening to music without sub bass frequencies. The Vifa tweeters are highly interesting to me based on frequency range and power handling. For mids, I just dont have a clue. I'd like to keep each side to $200 or less in parts if possible and each side to be able to take 100-150 watts rms. Im ok with having to build my own crossover, it can be 2 or 3 way, it can be mulitple mids and tweeters, and my favorite song is "In the Air Tonight" by Phil Collins. I want people to feel as if the drumset is right at their feet when playing this song. Please help a Newbie out! Thanks in advance for your help everyone!
    Bryan

  • #2
    Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

    Hey, Glad to see another car audio guy around.
    You are aiming for the holy grail of car audio- truly punchy midbass. One thing I never attained with my MB Quart q-series for $900, and I came really close with the Focal K2P 2-way set for $1120.

    There are lots of rules to apply to any speaker/driver you choose. Many of those rules must be thrown out the window for the auto environment. If you are running them in the door, you have slightly more leeway. If you intend to build pods or kickpanels, you will be sacrificing the drivers needs for airspace. Many drivers here are intended for home use, thus a large ( or suitable) enclosure is automatically assumed essential.
    Research the T/S parameters regarding QTS and associated enclosure size. This will narrow down your search results. Also, typically stay away from paper cones for auto use, unless you know they will be safe (depending on your climate) Stick with Poly, aluminum, or magnesium.
    It will be a challenge to apply the wealth of crossover building knowledge here into the auto area. This is why even with $1000 component sets, they are still running 2nd order crossovers with no contour filters, and no tricky stuff.
    For the money you have spent in on the Quarts, buy a few drivers that fit your physical requirements, run them off the Quart XO (as long as the frequency range is safe) and experiment. I am sure you can follow up your favorite drivers with a custom XO once you have them in place and hear what you want to change.
    Many reviews on the PE site aim auto users at the Dayton Reference Series. They are aluminum cones, high power handling, reasonable high Xmax, and are IMO far better than any Quart.

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    • #3
      Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

      I believe ROTEC is refering to this woofer...http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-335 Which is a great deal IMO. Before I start to recommend drivers, I would like a little more information. Like which amps will you be using, will be planning on running active etc. If you are looking for that nice punch that you feel in your chest on those heavy drum tracks or tracks with a nice slap bass, you will need a driver with a large surface area or a high xmax. But sometimes that can be hard to impliment.
      Although I have not personally heard the Dayton that ROTEC recommeds, I have not heard a bad thing about them. Plus, they look good on paper; especially for the price. If you dont mind splurging a little, and if driver depth is not a big concern, I would recommend the exodus anarchy. http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=538 Big xmax, and very linear BL curve with the XBL^2 motor. Pretty wide frequency range too. I have mine from 70/80-2.2khz. I really love my midbass and I can verify that these will not disappoint in that department. Should suffice if you dont want to run sub as well.

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      • #4
        Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

        ROTEC was referring to the RS180-4. On diyma, this driver is highly regarded.

        The Anarchy is a great driver but you better hurry because Kevin is getting out of the driver business.

        When reviewing drivers, for open-baffle installations the driver should have a Qts > 0.5.

        I've been thinking about trying the ND140-4 in a door. I believe this would be great driver but don't have any actual experience with it.

        If you're going to use the MBQ xover, check the Re of you're current drivers. It use to be that the tweeters were 6 ohm jobbers. And I know a number of car audio manufacturers are now using 2 ohm mids. (Check out the SAS buyouts.)
        - John

        "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Dr. M. L. King
        www.BuildTheDream.org

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        • #5
          Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

          @ameuba10, wow, $85 is not bad for that mid!!
          @ ameuba10, I had planned on using old school amps from U.S. Amps. They have never let me down, typically underrated and typically low distortion. Im open to suggestions though as I dont know how well they have aged over the years and there may be a better option now. I planned on going multiple amps if needed. I just got a BNIB USA-50 for $60 and figured it would be good for multiple mids or tweets as it is 1ohm stereo stable. I dont believe they are as clear but over the years I have amassed several old fosgate amps(3-200a4's, 160a2, and 120a2) as well but dont know how they would do on high end when it comes to distortion. Ive only ever used them on subs or coaxials and you cant really know if the distortion is speakers or amp. I am very open to suggestions since this will probably be an extensive build and something I want to be proud of. I would like to use a tru 3way electronic x-over--many say 3way but they have no bandpass so I may use a 2way electronic and build a crossover.
          @ HairBrained, I have been looking at those as well. So small they could be used in multiples, maybe 2 or 4 per door. Wish someone had some serious experience with them
          I figured I would be using titanium dome tweeters for their sizzle but Ill need mids that can keep up? Keep the info coming guys, I appreciate all the help you can give!
          Bryan
          Last edited by bcuttn123; 10-11-2011, 02:01 PM. Reason: adding info

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

            The ND140 will move a lot of air, as will the ND105. Both can be used in multiples if you want to butcher your doors up enough to try it.

            The Massive Audio RK6 component set is very powerful for the price, but requires a new crossover or an active setup. The supplied crossover is so worthless that you can't even salvage parts from it for other uses except maybe fishing weights. If you've seen the motor structure on that driver, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. May not fit in all doors though. Sure didn't fit in mine without a lot of custom work.

            Far more important than the driver you're going to use (if punchy midbass is your goal) is the quality and thoroughness of the install. You can spend gobs of money and get very little in return if your install isn't good.

            The Anarchy midwoofer is very nice, but it is a 7" driver and it does demand a high mounting depth. Just something consider.

            HareBrained hit the nail on the head with the Qts of the driver.

            Do you have measurement equipment available and are you comfortable with crossover design software? If not, I would highly advise you consider a MiniDSP.
            Modding the Lepai T-Amp

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

              The problem in a car is that there's no vent to extend response, so it's asking a lot of the midwoofer to reproduce. Add one small 10" sub and equalize it so it isn't obnoxious and you'll be a lot more successful...disconnect rear speakers btw... they are totally detrimental in a well setup car imo.

              i would start by fixing car acoustics. I find it to be roughly 60% of good sound to reduce the spls necessary to get clarity without road noise and door vibration.

              ...then accept the usefulness of an efficient sub... something like a sealed peerless 830668 is all you need IMO.

              ... I would use an active crossover like minidsp to equalize cabin gain flat and highpass the midwoofer around 100hz.

              ...I suggest using a large format tweeter that can cross low, like the dayton RS28F or Aura whisper. this keeps woofer off axis from being a problem.

              ..I also suggest a small format midwoofer with plenty of throw. the upcoming exodus 5.25" anarchy assuming it wasn't canceled, would be optimal. try to keep drivers as close as possible.

              as for qts, you can always equalize a drooping response electronically if you've got the watts..... personally i'd focus on linear throw of the midwoofer, its distortion performance, and its far off axis dispersion up to the crossover point. QTS is important for a passive setup moreso imo.

              as for amps, i don't buy the need for high wattage. I realize car audio companies can be dishonest about power ratings but I honestly get ear bleed levels with 20Wrms amps in a car. It ultimately depends how sensitive your woofer is. this really returns us to fixing car acoustics first and foremost.
              :blues: Flat frequency response, a smooth sound power response free of resonance, careful driver-integration, and high dynamic range both upward and downward :blues:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                Thanks for all the great advice! I definitely will be working on dampening the car to help with sound quality. Disconnecting the rear speakers was definitely part of the plan as they barely do anything already. I do have an old fosgate 10" HE2 sub in a 1-1.25ft3 sealed box which is pretty clean and handles some power. Correct me if im wrong but when you talk about the "format" are you referring to the surface area of the face of the speaker? As far as sensitivity of speakers I figured I would need a minimum 90db mid to keep up with the tweeter, what do you guys think? Also, I was wondering how high I could cross the mids, is 100hz still low enough to feel the punch from a drum or tom? I mean, as I said I want it to feel like there is a drumset right in front of you, but I know some of the experience is how your brain perceives it. Also, I had read in a couple of stories that having a tweeter crossed at 2k or lower helps the mid or smooths the transition between the two. Any truth to this or facts about it? Thanks for your help guys!
                Bryan

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                  Originally posted by bcuttn123 View Post
                  I do have an old fosgate 10" HE2 sub in a 1-1.25ft3 sealed box which is pretty clean and handles some power.
                  I hope it's as clean as you say it is. I find that a lot of subs people say are clean have some audible distortion cues that give away their location, even if they don't sound boomy or obnoxious.

                  Correct me if im wrong but when you talk about the "format" are you referring to the surface area of the face of the speaker?
                  Basically, yea. I meant that a 3/4" tweeter probably won't cut it for a 2-ay car setup if you want to cross it around 1khz, and a 8" woofer won't cut it for the same reason. I chose a 1khz crossover frequency because i was under the impression you were inserting your midwoofer into the door. this means all of the sound reaching your ears is off axis response, so you want as wide a dispersion at 70-80 degrees as possible. If you were to cross the same woofer at 2khz, it's going to be well down in level where you're sitting and the tweeter will dominate the sound. IMO a 1.5" or 2" tweeter + 5" mid + good 10 or 12" sealed sub are the way to go in a car.

                  As far as sensitivity of speakers I figured I would need a minimum 90db mid to keep up with the tweeter, what do you guys think?
                  keeping up with the tweeter imo is rarely an issue with correct level matching in an active crossover. it's in the upper bass where you want the mid to keep up with the sub, and imo for that you want clean ~95-100db peaks capability.

                  Also, I was wondering how high I could cross the mids, is 100hz still low enough to feel the punch from a drum or tom? I mean, as I said I want it to feel like there is a drumset right in front of you, but I know some of the experience is how your brain perceives it.
                  First of all it depends on how well implemented your crossover is. You need to level match properly otherwise your sub could dominate and muddy things up for the mains. you don't want your sub operating above roughly 150hz or so imo, so a 100hz crossover to me is about right. if you go lower you'll want a bigger midwoofer, which means you'll have reduced dispersion right in the midrange.

                  Second, imo yes. 100hz is a large enough wavelength that we don't perceive its location. The harmonics from from the drum or tom should come through the front speakers while the fundamental won't be localized. It's those harmonics that give you cues that the drum is in front of you. stuff below roughly 80hz is not very musical on its own.

                  Also, I had read in a couple of stories that having a tweeter crossed at 2k or lower helps the mid or smooths the transition between the two.
                  The appropriate crossover point depends on many factors. Where the drivers aiming, how close together they are, how much output they can handle, and how good the off axis response is at a given frequency, and the slope of the crossover. My suggestion, the 2" Aura Whisper, can probably play very clean all the way down to 700hz. So with a well implemented crossover around 1khz to a smaller midwoofer, I think you'd be much of the way there. This is the same tweeter used in the Linkwitz Pluto. Then add in a subwoofer crossover around 100hz for the last part. if you're localizing the sub you might need to work on reducing rattles in the car, or finding a sub driver with less of a distortion signature that would give away its location. I would definitely aim the 2" tweeter to ear level at the very least. If you really need that last bit of top octave air from a smaller tweeter, add in a small super tweeter passively - i doubt it's worthwhile in a noisy car though - JMO.
                  :blues: Flat frequency response, a smooth sound power response free of resonance, careful driver-integration, and high dynamic range both upward and downward :blues:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                    The Rockford Fosgate HE2 is a decent sub for the time period. It is a treated paper cone (appears to have some synthetic material as well) thus is can play nicely and well balanced. There is surely room for improvement in the subwoofer department, though if you dont ask too much of it you should be just fine. I know the excursion capability if far greater than when distortion sets in, so play it a bit lower than you may "think" you want for a few weeks, then once you crank it up again, you may notice the distortion for the first time.

                    The other posters were correct (in part) about my recommendation of the Dayton RS line. They all pointed to the 7''. I meant any of them- though obviously the 7'' is the bang for the buck. You coult feasibly build a 3-way with all RS products like the 7'', 4'' mid, and RS tweeter which can play down very low. IF you have 150wpc available I would ballpark for 80-800hz for the 7'' 800-1800 for the 4'' and tweeter above that. That tweeter has been used all over this forum as low as 1000hz.
                    Then, if you are going for all RS products, they make very nice subwoofers too. Maybe running 2 8'' RS subs would be a great choice for you down the road.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                      Invest some time in damping your panels....even if you go the cheapo route, it makes a huge difference. I'm all about saving a dime...so no Dynamat for me , but lots of PEEL & SEAL instead. It's a fraction of the cost of the good Dynamat and does an awesome job.

                      I'm an old skool car audio guy myself. I like to see some of that interest here. PE has a lot to offer and compared to the main-stream car audio vendors, you can build a kick-a$$ system on a budget with PE and the advice of the guru's here...no doubt.
                      Bryan K.

                      Midwest Audio Club

                      Speedster | Sub Attachť | The Wildeman | Sean's NLA Towers | CO‹GAR, COUGAR II and CO‹GAR JR | Triton | Lithium | J-Boom | Trym MLTL | Docere MLTL

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                      • #12
                        Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                        This is a great thread on why not to use peel and seal. I learned a great deal from reading it... http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f1...ot-asphalt-30/

                        This is a great site to find some very high quality deadener. http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/products/cld In my experience, I have found that I yeilded the best results by only applying CLD tiles on the door. The floor is already stiff and generally treated well already. The trunk IMO is optional. In my civic coupe, I only used 10 of those tiles ($24.50) and sealed up the access holes with some cutting boards from K-Mart.

                        I am still pretty new to the car audio world but Ill put in what I know. 3-ways are ideal on paper. But, the absolute best cars that I have had the privledge to hear were 2-ways. They are just simpler and easy to tune. There has been a big fad of using wide range drivers for the mid and high frequencies. It can raise the soundstage of the mids well, but I feel that I lose that 'sparkle' in the higher frequencies. As recommended earlier, the Aura Whisper could be a happy medium. It opens the doors for a slew of mids to pair up with it.

                        IMO, to really get the bass up front, I would look to a mid that has some *****. And again, proper tuning will give you a sensation that everything is ahead of you. I would try to lower the LP on the sub as well. I know I can tell a big difference when I switch my LP on the subs from 80 to 50Hz. Just tweaking some of the freq's can really make a difference. Just play around with it and you will quickly learn a few things.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                          I just switched my set-up from a Peerless HDS and the Seas Tweet to the RS180 and the RS28F and I couldn't be any happier...!!! I'm running them off of a Cadence iA4 acvite. Crossed around [email protected] The RS28F is also on sale.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                            Originally posted by ameuba10 View Post
                            This is a great thread on why not to use peel and seal. I learned a great deal from reading it... http://www.mobilesoundscience.com/f1...ot-asphalt-30/

                            This is a great site to find some very high quality deadener. http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/products/cld In my experience, I have found that I yeilded the best results by only applying CLD tiles on the door. The floor is already stiff and generally treated well already. The trunk IMO is optional. In my civic coupe, I only used 10 of those tiles ($24.50) and sealed up the access holes with some cutting boards from K-Mart.

                            I am still pretty new to the car audio world but Ill put in what I know. 3-ways are ideal on paper. But, the absolute best cars that I have had the privledge to hear were 2-ways. They are just simpler and easy to tune. There has been a big fad of using wide range drivers for the mid and high frequencies. It can raise the soundstage of the mids well, but I feel that I lose that 'sparkle' in the higher frequencies. As recommended earlier, the Aura Whisper could be a happy medium. It opens the doors for a slew of mids to pair up with it.

                            IMO, to really get the bass up front, I would look to a mid that has some *****. And again, proper tuning will give you a sensation that everything is ahead of you. I would try to lower the LP on the sub as well. I know I can tell a big difference when I switch my LP on the subs from 80 to 50Hz. Just tweaking some of the freq's can really make a difference. Just play around with it and you will quickly learn a few things.
                            I prefer to avoid SDS products for personal reasons. I like to support companies that are run by respectful, considerate, and good natured people. Some of the responses I've received from the owner and/or employees of SDS on diyma have been quite the opposite of that in every aspect. Rude would put it very kindly. They can fly a kite for all I care.

                            4 years back I picked up 160 square feet of Elemental Designs eDead v1.2 sound deadening, butyl based (after they got in trouble for using asphalt in their earlier versions). I've had it in my doors for 4 chicago winters and summers and none of it has moved or come undone. Very good stuff, and does an excellent job. At the price I got it, I could afford to double up most of the entire door as well.



                            A few other companies make a similar product as well.
                            Modding the Lepai T-Amp

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Newbie w/ Car Audio ????'s

                              what was the question again?

                              You basically want a 2-way passive setup, correct? Are you able/willing to measure and build the passive design off measurements or are you looking to build something pretty simple with a tweeter attenuation circuit?

                              Just to clarify, is your budget $400 total for 2-way speakers? Is that passives included? Is that amps included, or just drivers?
                              When you stop caring about being right, you might actually learn something.

                              My test data site:
                              http://medleysmusings.com/

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