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  • The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

    Ok. In order to try to ward off another cable/wire war, I'm curious to know a little bit more about the 3 Main properties of wire and cable.

    Inductance, Capacitance, and Resistance.

    So. What I'd like to know is:
    • What causes each of the 3 properties?
    • Which properties are desireable? And,
    • What are the consequences of each property?

    Let's try to keep this subjective.

    Thanks Ladies and Gents.

    रेतुर्न तो थे स्रोत
    return to the source
    leviathan system thread
    deadhorse thread
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    instagram :: greywarden_13

    in war, victory . . . in peace, vigilance . . . in death, sacrifice.

  • #2
    Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

    These questions brought on [mainly] by the graph at the end of this little writeup.

    http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Lo...peaker-Cables/

    रेतुर्न तो थे स्रोत
    return to the source
    leviathan system thread
    deadhorse thread
    shockwave build thread

    instagram :: greywarden_13

    in war, victory . . . in peace, vigilance . . . in death, sacrifice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

      Very simply
      Any two conductors separated by a distance can store a charge. So any two wires in a cable or harness can store a charge. This stored charge can affect how the cable behaves.
      The term "Capacitance" describes the ability of two conductors (separated by insulation) to store a charge. Capacitance is affected by the distance between the conductors and the insulation around the conductors. As the conductors get closer together or have more surface area (longer wires, shields etc.) the capacitance will increase.

      Capacitors, store energy in electric fields, an inductor does the same with magnetic fields.
      Capacitance impedes the flow of ac charge carriers by temporarily storing the energy as an electrical field.
      Inductance impedes the flow of ac charge carriers by temporarily storing the energy as an magnetic field.
      Capacitors impede low frequency signals.
      Inductors impede high frequency signals.

      http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/1.html
      http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_13/1.html
      http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_13/3.html
      http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_3/2.html
      Last edited by Sydney; 10-29-2011, 07:13 AM. Reason: addition
      "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
      "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

        so this is why it is important to have speaker wires the same lenth? sounds like one should measure with the intended cable, both type and lenth, as they will have in their new home for the purpose of crossover design.
        " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

        Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
        Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

        http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
        http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
          Very simply Capacitors, store energy in electric fields, an inductor does the same with magnetic fields.
          Capacitance impedes the flow of ac charge carriers by temporarily storing the energy as an electrical field.
          Inductance impedes the flow of ac charge carriers by temporarily storing the energy as an magnetic field.
          Capacitors impede low frequency signals.
          Inductors impede high frequency signals.

          http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_15/1.html
          http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_13/1.html
          http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_13/3.html
          http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_3/2.html
          Cable technology is at its infancy. Many say that the audio band is not wide enough, or high enough in frequency to be impacted by most cable factors, however we are sending complex waveforms and not sinewaves. Becomes a much different story as when "listening" to sine waves vs listening to music.

          The balance of those three can effect dynamics, add color to the sound, effect power factor between components, and load an amp if too capactive. It is easy to understand why and how it effects the sound, it is just a matter of subtles, not unlike capacitors. Good caps in speakers and good cables may only make a 3% improvement each, but with separates that's 3% x3 or four pair, plus the caps you are looking at a 12-15% improvement in your systems performance just for paying attention to detail.

          Cost is not related to performance, unfortunately, and some DIY cables do not sound very good, and some perform like any boutique you can find. It may vary system to system based on how your components react to: Capactience, Resistance, and Inductance in the cable.

          Lastly, there is no standards for any of this. So it makes it hard for a company like Virtue audio who makes some of the most reasonably priced, and high performing cables out there be taken seriously by those who should. What makes the situation even harder is when you have other companies like MIT and Cardas selling similar performing product for 60x the cost.

          Until this is resolved you have to use the knowledge as a tool, and really understand how it impacts your system from a performance standpoint. With no means for insult to anyone. If you cannot hear a difference it is likely due to the ability of a system to resolve the minute details, and differences. Does not mean you need a audiophile uber system, just means what it means.

          Without calling anyone out, a while ago I had a forum member over who does not necessarily believe power cord can effect the sound. Without telling them what I was doing, I changed from a 14awg standard coard, to an inexpensive aftermarket (I paid $60) and when I told them I made a change to the back of the system, do they hear a difference they described verbatim the same improvement that 3 or 4 others did: The soundstage was "wider and deeper", and the attack was better, but it all was subtle. The exact differences I was hearing myself. It is enough for me, and understanding there is even an effect on power supplies (i.e. power factor) from the wall to the amp, I do not mind the minor investment for subtle improvement.

          Take it for what it is worth. I just would advise not to shut possibilities down regardless of the education level you receive advice from . A talented EE who focuses on semiconductor design, while they posses the skillset to understand all of what is going on, they to not, and have no specialized their work around cable design so they are forced back to established theory only without actual scientific hypothesis/testing over time. It is like a Master Baker (giggle) telling a Master Chief how to make a perfect Beef Wellington.

          You are on the right track, think about it, try some new things and see what works for you.
          .

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

            In order to try to ward off another cable/wire war
            Because there is usually a bias or vested interest: I purposely avoided using material from purveyors of audio cable and instead used scholastic sources.
            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

              perhaps a little ot but, i have an electric dryer 220 plug about 60 feet from my entertainment center. ive wondered if running 12 or 10awg extention cord to two 110 would be an enprovement over the 14 or 16 romex that i must have now?
              sorry for the hijack. good thread.
              " To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015

              Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
              Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??

              http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/
              http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                perhaps a little ot but, i have an electric dryer 220 plug about 60 feet from my entertainment center. ive wondered if running 12 or 10awg extention cord to two 110 would be an enprovement over the 14 or 16 romex that i must have now?
                sorry for the hijack. good thread.


                maybe.

                My ht has all 10 gauge romex hard to wire as the cable is stiff and rigid. (giggle said the master baker) Now 10 gauge wire can handle more then 2400 watts and my plugs are twenty amp rated. My ht can pull 5 x 75 2 x 250 and 1 x 300 for the amps that is 1175 watts. If I crank up the system I can pull another 250 for the tv the preamp and the computer so that is 1425 watts. a 15 amp plug with 14 gauge wire will run short juice wise during any peaks. not the 10 gauge power line

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                  so this is why it is important to have speaker wires the same lenth?
                  Being the same length their "effects" would be balanced. I do measure with cable included. Presuming that the speaker runs aren't dramatically different there are likely bigger sources of variations.

                  Arlis: Using a multimeter you can take measurements and determine the voltage drop of your existing wiring.
                  http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/5.html
                  Last edited by Sydney; 10-29-2011, 09:42 AM. Reason: addition
                  "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                  "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                    Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                    so this is why it is important to have speaker wires the same lenth?
                    It is not. Even a 50:1 ratio is inaudible.
                    The problem with almost every discussion of wire is the too oft taken assumption that wire and electrons function within the time frame associated with the speed of sound. They don't, they operate within the time frame associated with the speed of light, which renders them free of the constraints associated with mechanical devices.
                    In any event this is quite definitive:
                    http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
                    www.billfitzmaurice.com
                    www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                      If an Atom loses it's electron in the middle of a forest, and no one was around to hear it, did it really make a noise?:D:p

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                        Some related material :http://www.belden.com/docs/upload/In...ns-Jackets.pdf
                        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                          Nelson Pass on speaker cables:

                          http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/spkrcabl.pdf
                          John k.... Music and Design NaO dsp Dipole Loudspeakers.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                            Earlier on it was stated:

                            "Cable technology is at its infancy. Many say that the audio band is not wide enough, or high enough in frequency to be impacted by most cable factors, however we are sending complex waveforms and not sinewaves. Becomes a much different story as when "listening" to sine waves vs listening to music.
                            "

                            I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. Let's say you have a cable that has an acceptable 20 KHz bandwidth. It doesn't matter how complex of a waveform you have if the highest individual frequency component of that signal is under 20 KHz. Remember, that complex waveform is just a summation of the individual waveforms. That's a basic principle that is the basis of SW packages like ARTA, HolmImpulse, SoundEasy, etc.

                            My outlook on it: Take this entry from the referenced article for 12AWG Zip Cord: 18.0 pF/ft 0.19 uH/ft 0.016 ohms/10ft.

                            Calculate the above values for a 10 ft. cable. Then go into PCD and enter those values as a filter. Judge whether the filter will adversely affect the 20 - 20 KHz audio range.

                            Cheers....
                            Last edited by ernperkins; 10-29-2011, 11:13 AM. Reason: mis-spelling
                            "Everything is nothing without a high sound quality." (Sure Electronics)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The 3 Properties of Wire/Cable

                              Originally posted by johnk... View Post
                              Yep, read that before. I love where he finds a difference between gauges of cables in high(er) current situations.

                              Fulton or Monster cables were a clear
                              improvement over 24 or even 18 gauge, though a little less subtle than
                              I would have expected, leading me to believe that the effort associated
                              with heavier cables pays off in bass response and in apparent midrange
                              definition, especially at crossover frequencies


                              I'm not surprised that there is a difference between 24AWG and 12AWG when driving speakers with a decent amount of current at 10ft or so.

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