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  • #46
    Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

    That's not what this thread is about, or haven't you bothered to read the title.

    It's a build thread for a speaker system that isn't perfect, never claimed to be, and makes compromises that suit this particular designer.

    It's not about multiple subs, or optimal rooms, or what summers are like on the Riviera. It's about an affordable floor standing TMM that can deliver a heck of a lot more dynamic capability than your typical 7" 2-way, using Parts Express house brand drivers, that are within most of the attendees budgets.

    If you want to discuss the merits of unlimited budgets and dedicated rooms that host multiple subs, start another thread.

    This one is about a waveguide loaded dome tweeter paired with a couple of 8" woofers and a meager 90dB target sensitivity. If that's not your cup of tea, I'm sure there are other cafe's on the Riviera that will suit your taste.
    R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
    Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

    95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
    "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

      That's not what this thread is about, or haven't you bothered to read the title.
      I thought the speaker in the title was this one:



      But turns out I was wrong about that. The different cone and lack of phase plug, perhaps, should've clued me in.

      Still, I was merely making suggestions to improve your design. And more efficient mains designed for use with a proper multisub system rather is fundamentally better system design.

      Now, if you don't like my suggestions or wish to take them, that's fine. But off topic they are not.

      If that's not your cup of tea, I'm sure there are other cafe's on the Riviera that will suit your taste.
      I've never been to a cafe in the Rivera (and that's French or Turkish) that I prefer to even a mediocre Viennese kaffeehaus, or even for that matter the faux-Viennese place in the Neue Gallerie in NYC or Cafe Leopold in Georgetown, but could just be me.
      --
      "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

        Originally posted by Pallas View Post
        I thought the speaker in the title was this one:

        But turns out I was wrong about that. The different cone and lack of phase plug, perhaps, should've clued me in.

        Still, I was merely making suggestions to improve your design. And more efficient mains designed for use with a proper multisub system rather is fundamentally better system design.
        Same waveguide, different speaker, but performance should be very similar.

        Again, I'm not sure how anything you suggested would improve the design here. Unless you mean toss the Dayton tweeter and use a pro compression tweeter with 15" waveguide, and replace the Dayton woofer with a Pro 12" mid-woofer, at which point, we are no longer talking about the L.O.K.I. build, which uses Dayton woofers and tweeters and a custom waveguide that works beautifully with this particular tweeter.
        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

          Apparently you have built a very poor example of an Econowave, Pete.:D

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

            Again, I'm not sure how anything you suggested would improve the design here. Unless you mean toss the Dayton tweeter and use a pro compression tweeter with 15" waveguide, and replace the Dayton woofer with a Pro 12" mid-woofer,
            Actually, had you read my post you would have seen that I recommended swapping out a pair the Dayton 8's for a pair of better 8's with higher efficiency (and better motor and build quality, and bass extension appropriate for blending with multiple subwoofers in the modal region) by B&C. Nothing about a 12" midwoofer or a 15" WG.
            --
            "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

              Originally posted by Pallas View Post
              Actually, had you read my post you would have seen that I recommended swapping out a pair the Dayton 8's for a pair of better 8's with higher efficiency (and better motor and build quality, and bass extension appropriate for blending with multiple subwoofers in the modal region) by B&C. Nothing about a 12" midwoofer or a 15" WG.
              This isn't about sub woofers. What part about that is so difficult to understand? I'd actually like to use this woofer quite a bit, but that's not what this build is about. There's plenty of thread space here at PE for you to post your dream 8" 2-way using the B&C and a waveguide. But, again, this build is about the Dayton RS225, and RS28. Besides, using your higher sensitivity woofers takes the dome tweeter out of the equation, and then, again, we're no longer talking about this build.

              So, please start the B&C build, do the community a favor and contribute a design, instead of simply coming on here and telling all of us how what we're doing falls short of your ideal.
              R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
              Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

              95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
              "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                So, please start the B&C build, do the community a favor and contribute a design, instead of simply coming on here and telling all of us how what we're doing falls short of your ideal.

                Never going to happen. The less people respond to him, the more he'll take it up a notch. Until he is banned again.

                Chris
                Chris

                Goofing around since 2000.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                  This isn't about sub woofers. What part about that is so difficult to understand? I'd actually like to use this woofer quite a bit, but that's not what this build is about. There's plenty of thread space here at PE for you to post your dream 8" 2-way using the B&C and a waveguide. But, again, this build is about the Dayton RS225, and RS28. Besides, using your higher sensitivity woofers takes the dome tweeter out of the equation, and then, again, we're no longer talking about this build.

                  So, please start the B&C build, do the community a favor and contribute a design, instead of simply coming on here and telling all of us how what we're doing falls short of your ideal.
                  +1 and by the way Pallas some people don't care for subs.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                    Pete, this build is very interesting. Love the driver choices, and I've been contemplating doing my first build using them ever since finding Zaph's site last year. Might have to get some tips from you and some of the good woodworkers on here to help with techniques to make some waveguides like you have. I commend you on the build concept and especially on your patience. My lack of patience with clowns is the main reason I rarely go to the circus. Quick question for you and only slightly off topic...what are the speakers in the above pic? Looks like something some of the finer craftsmen on here might turn out.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                      Nevermind the question. I just read the entire build thread for those little beauties. You guys are amazing. Ed is truly a craftsman. Congrats on that build, and I'm looking forward to this build even more now!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                        Originally posted by Crave View Post
                        Nevermind the question. I just read the entire build thread for those little beauties. You guys are amazing. Ed is truly a craftsman. Congrats on that build, and I'm looking forward to this build even more now!
                        Thanks! The ByzyMini/Aurora was a real adventure, especially for Ed. The results mandated that we come up with something for the gang since the WG was a product of a group effort here. Ed's cabinetry is something that is almost impossible to duplicate, so a more "traditional" approach to the cabinetry was in order. There's also a QC question with the Vifa woofer, so going to a proven performer that has a ton of fans here was a no brainer.

                        I think we're going to put the TM on hold, and just go for the gusto right now, with Ed building up a cabinet for the TMM MLTL. He'll make the WG baffle for anyone wishing to build up the project, once we get all the crossover details worked out. This should be ready for InDIYana.
                        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                          Some of the comments we got on the sound of the ByzyMini/Aurora was a very spacious stage that replicated the sound of a concert hall very admirably. I don't know if they enhance the imaging, or have little impact, but the guides do have a very uniform off axis performance that allows you to literally dial in the amount of high end you prefer, by simply dialing the speaker to a slightly different angle. I'm thinking that as long as you make a really inert cabinet, that imaging should be as good as any point source monitor, maybe even a little better, since everything from 1000Hz on up, where most spatial queues originate, is all in the tweeter.

                          And as I've been reminded previously, a flat baffle is just a 180 degree waveguide.
                          This.
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                            Any progress ? I was thinking of doing something similar with the 7" because I can cross it higher, but if the 8" is possible, that's better.

                            Are you using the 4ohm RS225 or 8 ohm ? I noticed that as the drivers get bigger, the 4 ohms have better performance.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                              What needs to be acknowledged here is Pete's success with finding a suitable WG profile to work with the RS28. Those following WG discussions already know that getting even directivity from 1 to 20 kHz is as good a startin platform as any speaker available today. This opens up the possibiities for use with solo many woofers for nearly endless favors of either large paper cone woofers or smaller metal cones like the SEAS Excels. Sure I'd like to see a more efficient design to match with pro gear but hey, Pete made a realistic compromise for his needs. Those that listen at safe, reasonable levels will find this combo to more than exceed their listening pleasures. Not to mention that those craving more efficiency have the SB 29 ring radiator to try who also did exceptionally well for Zaph with ready made PE waveguides. I would expect it perform equally well in Pete's guide as the profile appears to be very complimentary to domes. If Pete want's to try an SB29, I'll send him one for a go round.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Project L.O.K.I. Build thread.

                                I was hoping to get to testing the SB29 that Arlis sent, today, but other stuff had to be taken care of first, so hopefully tomorrow. The only issue so far with the SB is the inability to simply bolt it to the back of the current guide. The RS28 has that flat faceplate, while the SB has a contoured plate that creates a gap between the guide and ring dome. To say that introduces problems in the top octave would be polite. It's a mess. So, hopefully, I can gracefully remove the flange, and get another pass on the baffle.

                                I've thought about scooping out some of the back of the guide so that the SB would be able to be bolted on. Just have to figure out a simple way to remove the material . . . maybe the round end of a belt sander . . . hmmmm.

                                I'm going to approach this as a 2.5-way, since the 2nd woofer will be mounted under the first one. That being the case, it's simpler to go with the 8 Ohm woofers. Setting the 4 Ohm woofers in series, and then rolling one off before the other as it goes up in frequency, can be done. And you would wind up with an 8 Ohm system. But I'm not sure what happens when you hang a cap across the woofer you need to filter. Weird things happen around resonance according to PCD, and that may do wonky things to tuning.
                                R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                                Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                                95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                                "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                                Comment

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