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  • TMWW... First DIY project

    Greetings everyone, I am very new to speaker design, but not electronics...


    So for my first project, I have ordered the following:

    Dayton Audio DMPC-5.6 5.6uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor Part Number: 027-425 (QTY 2)

    Goldwood GT-510 1" Soft Dome Tweeter Part Number: 270-176 (QTY 2)

    Vifa TC9FD-18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer Part Number: 264-1062 (QTY 2)

    GRS 8PR-8 8" Poly Cone Rubber Surround Woofer Part Number: 292-428 (QTY 4)

    I have wired the mid and tweeter in series, with the caps going into the tweeter for protection from harmful freqs below around 3.7KHz. I have also wired the 8" woofers in series (2 per cab), and the mid/tweet, and woofer combos are wired in parallel at the binding posts. This should give me an 8 ohm load, but it reads 16 ohms until I remove the cap from the circuit. Is this because the cap keeps the mid/tweet circuit open until energized?

    I don't have any equipment to measure or test the drivers. I am a big fan of less is more when it comes to electical components in speaker enclosures. I am hoping that with the frequency ranges of the drivers, that I will get a nice full range system. I plan on spacing the distance between the mid and tweet 3.6" cone to cone. I am doing this in the hopes of minimizing any lobing between the two. The cabinet is going to be sealed with a Vb=3.37ft3, =5284in3, =95.44L. The Vb is the result of an online enclosure design calculator I used, and will hopefully yield an Fb=33Hz @ -3dB. I am going to try them without flush mounting first, and then if they sound good, I will mount them to a solid 1x12pine board with 3/4"MDF behind. Anyone forsee any issues with this idea? The speaker enclosure will have the following dimensions:

    Inside: 37"h x 10.5"w x 15"d

    Outside: 38.5"h x 12"w x 17.5"d

    My end goal is to build a set of floor standing speakers that look and sound better than what I can get at a well known electronics retailer with a final assembly and finished budget of around $350-$400

    So far I have spent $185 rounded up on drivers, screws, caps, 100ft speaker wire, tape seal (mounting drivers), 2 sheets 3/4"x4'x8' MDF, and 1 1"x12"x10' whiteboard pine.

    My goal with the pine is to stain it cherry, and paint the rest of the cabinet with a laquer high gloss black. Any input is welcome and apreciated. :D
    HAGD,
    Marc

    Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

    TMWW thread

    Maurbacs DCR Tower

  • #2
    Re: TMWW... First DIY project

    Oh boy. This won't be pretty.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: TMWW... First DIY project

      why is that?
      HAGD,
      Marc

      Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

      TMWW thread

      Maurbacs DCR Tower

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: TMWW... First DIY project

        The problem / reason is it's difficult to communicate what goes into making a speaker design that we're happy with here to new people that have already bought X parts and started a design of their own and don't know what's gone wrong.

        I'd read the FAQ links here ( http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy ) to get a better feeling of what you're diving into. In general I'd recommend looking at the different builds here and trying one out as well as learning PCD (Passive Crossover Designer) prior to attempting to start a design of your own.

        The response often sounds snarky but it's because folks here would rather tell you before you have X amount of money sunk into something you're disappointed with.

        Take it easy
        Jay
        Last edited by Brewski; 05-31-2012, 07:06 PM.
        "I like Brewski's threads, they always end up being hybrid beer/speaker threads based on the name of his newest creation." - Greywarden

        Breakfast Stout - HiVi RT2 II/Aurasound NS6
        Imperial Russian Stout - Vifa DX25/Fountek FW146/(2) Fountek FW168s - Built by Fastbike
        Ruination 2.5 way - Vifa DX25/Fountek FW168
        Levitation TM
        - Vifa BC25SG15/Fountek FW168

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: TMWW... First DIY project

          Dude,

          A TMWW is a very dificult project for your first solo design.
          There are many, many factors involved.
          If you can get FRD (frequency response) and ZMA (impedance)
          files for your drivers, you can get good results if you follow this
          guide:
          http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...d-measurements

          The Vifa TC9FD driver should be a very nice mid, I just ordered some.
          I think some guys here have used the Goldwood drivers, and may have the files you need to do a proper design. People are typically very helpful. Be humble, and polite. You just may pull this off, and end up with something that you like.

          Oh, and don't wire your tweeter and mid in series. Wire them parallel.

          regards,

          I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
          "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

          High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
          SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
          My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

          Tangband W6-sub

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: TMWW... First DIY project

            Thanks Brewski,

            I understand that, and have accepted the risk as this is my first attempt, and I learn by experience more than just reading. So I figured that if I buy cheap drivers, I can "play" with building cabs, adding things here and there until I get it as good as those speakers will allow. That is why I went so cheap. Now I also believe that I can make these drivers still sound better than what i can buy for that money at a retailer. This is a learning experience for me, and I dive in head first! LOL. This will not be my only cabs I ever build/design. This is just the first of many (hopefully with wife approval). Thanks for the input, and I look forward to experimening, and future updates, and input from the vets.
            HAGD,
            Marc

            Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

            TMWW thread

            Maurbacs DCR Tower

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: TMWW... First DIY project

              Originally posted by donradick View Post
              Dude,

              A TMWW is a very dificult project for your first solo design.
              There are many, many factors involved.
              If you can get FRD (frequency response) and ZMA (impedance)
              files for your drivers, you can get good results if you follow this
              guide:
              http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...d-measurements

              The Vifa TC9FD driver should be a very nice mid, I just ordered some.
              I think some guys here have used the Goldwood drivers, and may have the files you need to do a proper design. People are typically very helpful. Be humble, and polite. You just may pull this off, and end up with something that you like.

              Oh, and don't wire your tweeter and mid in series. Wire them parallel.

              regards,
              Thanks for the response. If i wire the mid/tweet in Parallel, how can i wire the remaining drivers to still acheive 8ohms cab resistance?
              HAGD,
              Marc

              Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

              TMWW thread

              Maurbacs DCR Tower

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                Originally posted by WernerM View Post
                Thanks for the response. If i wire the mid/tweet in Parallel, how can i wire the remaining drivers to still acheive 8ohms cab resistance?
                Quick answer, 8 ohm design is irrelevant - almost any receiver can drive a 4 ohm design.

                Longer answer, look at impedance curves. (Do you understand impedance and capacitance?) - where you cross the mid to the tweeter, the mid will be at about 10 or 12 ohms impedance, and the cap on the tweeter will prevent a low resistance at that freq.

                Longest answer, import ZMA files into PCD, and you will see the complete system impedance profile.

                I think I hear a difference - wow, it's amazing!" Ethan Winer: audio myths
                "As God is my witness I'll never be without a good pair of speakers!" Scarlett O'Hara

                High value, high quality RS150/TB28-537SH bookshelf - TARGAS NLA!
                SB13/Vifa BC25SC06 MTM DCR Galeons-SB13-MTM
                My Voxel min sub Yet-another-Voxel-build

                Tangband W6-sub

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                  Originally posted by WernerM View Post
                  Thanks for the response. If i wire the mid/tweet in Parallel, how can i wire the remaining drivers to still acheive 8ohms cab resistance?
                  Use one of the woofers.

                  You should look at impedance, not dc resistance. The impedance of your system is mostly determined by your woofers. With two 8 ohm woofers you have a choice of 4 or 16 ohms. If your amp can handle the load going to 4 ohms would be my choice.

                  You are going to need more xo components btw. A cap only rolls off a speaker at 6db per octave.

                  I know you like to learn by doing, but you are going to need to read a bit. Start with what people have already linked.

                  And welcome to the best speaker forum on the web!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                    I agree with what has been said above. I don't see any way you're going to get remotely decent results with your approach unless you do quite a lot of reading and take many steps back.

                    Follow Don's advice and read the website URL he provided. It will give you an idea of what's being said and why.

                    I built several proven designs before I attempted to design my own set of speakers and I'm very glad I waited.
                    Modding the Lepai T-Amp

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                      Originally posted by WernerM View Post
                      My end goal is to build a set of floor standing speakers that look and sound better than what I can get at a well known electronics retailer..
                      Not unless Santa Claus is really coming to town, hell freezes over and John Travolta turns out to be a straight man...

                      It took me close to 8 years, measurement equipment, computer simulations and banging my head against the wall for years to build a decent TMWW!
                      Line Array: IDS-25 Clone, FE-83.
                      2-2.5 Way:
                      Zaph Audio's winning entry: ZA5+SB29. - Microliths: RS125+RS28. - Small Bangs: TB W4-1658SB+SEAS 27TBFC/G. - Monoliths: Peerless 830884+SEAS 27TBFC/G.
                      3-3.5 Way:Miniliths: SEAS P21/CA21REX+Neo8 PDR+Neo3 PDR. - Megaliths: 2xDayton RS270+2xT-B W4-1337SB+SB29. - ZDT3.5 +: 2xDayton RS180+Dayton RS52+Vifa DQ25. Reflexos: OB 4xDayton RS150 + Neo3 PDR.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                        If' its all the same: Go for it. But proceed with caution and acquire some real knowledge. Your $$$ would be well spent in Loudspeakers 201 or the LDC. Read the start here links, too. But the books are just unbiased boring fundamentals of the hobby. For your own path. You have the hardware, now get the tools to make the hardware into something. There are plenty of things out there people are told are not possible or cannot work.

                        How I would proceed?

                        1) acquire knowledge
                        2) Apply it.

                        It's that easy... ;)
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                          Thank you all for your responses, I have been doing about a months worth of reading on several forums, web pages, and online calculators, simulators, etc. for these specific drivers. Thanks so much for the link, I have saved it to favs, and have downloaded the sotware, I will utilize it before building the cabs. I realize that I am most likely NOT going to be able to get away without a X-over, but wanted to try without it first so that I can see the diff.
                          My dad and his friend built a great set of cabs when I was younger without a X-over, but they also had measuring equip and spent 3x as much on drivers. I remember closing my eyes listening to live performances, and seeing where every member of the band was on stage. I didn't just hear the music, I experienced it! :D

                          And to answer your question about my understanding of impedance and capacitance, yes I understand, good ole' Navy ET Vet here. ;)
                          HAGD,
                          Marc

                          Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

                          TMWW thread

                          Maurbacs DCR Tower

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                            Originally posted by WernerM View Post
                            Thank you all for your responses, I have been doing about a months worth of reading on several forums, web pages, and online calculators, simulators, etc. for these specific drivers. Thanks so much for the link, I have saved it to favs, and have downloaded the sotware, I will utilize it before building the cabs. I realize that I am most likely NOT going to be able to get away without a X-over, but wanted to try without it first so that I can see the diff.
                            I am all for experimentation, and your drivers will certainly make sound so feel free, but if I were you I would stop, return all the drivers and find a kit that you want to build.

                            This is not by way of judgement, but by way of empathy. I was right where you are. I like to learn by doing. But I learned a lot about crossovers, acoustics, etc through the process of building someone else's design and asking a lot of annoying questions along the way (Sorry Lou). Every week I wanted to alter the design because of something new I had read or thought about. He patiently explained to me the consequences of my design thoughts, and in the end I built something very close to his design because he had considered all the trade-offs. Now, I will have an awesome pair of speakers to listen to and use as a reference for future projects, allowing me to engage in the comparison you are referring to. From terrible to merely bad will sound like an improvement, but if you have something that is actually good to compare it to you can really start learning.

                            For your budget you could build one of several amazing designs. Why not start there? Are you afraid those projects would have nothing to teach you? Do you not think you will be as proud of the finished product? Do you think you won't want to build anything afterwards? I had all of these worries, and they all ended up being incorrect for me.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: TMWW... First DIY project

                              Originally posted by NickJ View Post
                              For your budget you could build one of several amazing designs. Why not start there? Are you afraid those projects would have nothing to teach you? Do you not think you will be as proud of the finished product? Do you think you won't want to build anything afterwards? I had all of these worries, and they all ended up being incorrect for me.
                              My problem is that I only have $84 invested in drivers and the caps, this is what I can afford right now. I have thought about building someone else's design later on to compare to, but right now at this moment in time I have $150 invested and have everything I need to build the cabinets, unfinished of course, but playable. I understand that I am not going to get excellence at this price level, I just want something playable that "possibly" sounds better than what I can buy prebuilt, and which I can improve upon as my budget allows. I haven't seen another design yet that I can do for this price range. Can someone recommend one? Right now, I don't have any main floor speakers, this is why I'm jumping in feet first so to speak. My budget really hinders me right now, I saved for 6 months just to get to this point. As always thanks to all for insight, and assistance. Even though it may not seem like I am always agreeing with you all, I am listening.
                              HAGD,
                              Marc

                              Even though I try to tell everyone upfront, understand that I am still a Newb. I wish the status of Seasoned Veteran/Senior Member, etc. was earned with time not posts...

                              TMWW thread

                              Maurbacs DCR Tower

                              Comment

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