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Why don't I ever see these....?

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  • #31
    Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

    If the crown was being used full range, I doubt the fans would ever kick on. Limit the bandwidth for sub duty and average power goes way up. That's when the fans might kick on. If the amp is far enough away, you might not notice the fan. But with the Hafler 12 feet away, during quiet passages, I could hear the fan and it just plain irked me.
    Pete, how would a the demand go up for a sub compared to a full range speaker? Regardless, I had the fans screaming on a pair of full range speakers last night and need to look into fan mods or another solution.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

    http://www.diy-ny.com/

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    • #32
      Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

      There's a difference between production and reproduction. Not too sure which symphonies use amplifiers when recording.
      All of 'em, when the mix is being evaluated.



      Agreed generally on fan noise (though the XLS Drivecores have a reputation for very quiet fans).
      --
      "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

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      • #33
        Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

        Originally posted by Face View Post
        Pete, how would a the demand go up for a sub compared to a full range speaker? Regardless, I had the fans screaming on a pair of full range speakers last night and need to look into fan mods or another solution.
        Efficiency. A "full range" speaker designed to be powered by one amp channel (if it's actually full range) is going to have more cabinet volume than a typical subwoofer. And thus more efficient down low. Especially given the modern trend of subwoofers that are small (and thus inefficient) but get output by power and long throw. If we're talking about very large sub cabinets, or I-B, then the subs would be less demanding unless they were crazy-inefficient drivers like the ~80dB/W/m RE [triple X; PE language filter doesn't like the short form of that...] line.

        The XLS's are supposed to have quieter fans than your XTi. I don't know if it's true, as I haven't personally tried the XLS's. Though based on my old XTi2000's I concur with your assessment of their fans when they come on.
        --
        "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

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        • #34
          Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

          I think it is all about personal tastes. I have heard this amp and I think it is probably not the best choice for hifi full range use as it seems to have some issues that might not be present in the higher priced Crown units. I heard a guy using a pro amp for sub duty and for me it was noticeable as the fans definitely were audible in his dedicated theater. However when he got the controls I learned why he probably didn't notice the fan noise as the average db level I would listen at compared to what he listened at were vastly different. He would even scare the guys at the THX labs.

          Seriously it really depends on how much you value low noise floor for some I think ultimate output is more important than noise floor. This amp in my opinion gets a +1 on power output and a -1 on noise floor. If you are after high spls at minimal cost it is a great choice if you are after a very low noise system there are better choices.
          Dave

          If you can read this, thank a teacher.
          If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran
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          • #35
            Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

            I've not had that experience at all, Dave. I use the XLS1500, running balanced XLR, and I don't hear any noise issues, but the 1500+ have a lower SNR than the 1000 does. As to Pete's note on usage, I know the fan runs, but even when it's on I have to go behind the unit or place my ear right on the front panel for it to become audible using it as a main stereo amp.
            It could be that the associated equipment is not up to par and is passing noise through, but my Anthem/Crown combo appears to me to be dead quiet..

            Killa- looks aside, these are great for the money.

            Later,
            Wolf
            "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
            "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
            "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
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            • #36
              Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

              I don't notice the fan running in my XLS1500 at all running full-range mains. It may very well be a different series of product issue.

              Yes- subs are usually less sensitive, and require more juice, therefore, more heat generation. That's how I saw it.

              Later,
              Wolf
              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

              *InDIYana event website*

              Photobucket pages:
              http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

              My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

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              • #37
                Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                Originally posted by Face View Post
                Pete, how would a the demand go up for a sub compared to a full range speaker? Regardless, I had the fans screaming on a pair of full range speakers last night and need to look into fan mods or another solution.
                It has to do with peak to average ratio.

                When you run a full range music signal into an amp (20Hz - 20KHz) the amp will need to hit peak power that will be at least 5 times the average power, 10 times and higher if the recording is excellent. If the amp is 1000W, that means if you're going to be driving a speaker with unclipped peaks, you will deliver about 100W RMS when the signal has a 10:1 peak to average ratio.

                If you limit the bandwidth, the peak to average ratio goes way down. That means your 1000W amp can now deliver maybe 250 - 500W RMS during program material without clipping on the peaks. Higher average output would mean higher heat dissipation.
                R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
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                • #38
                  Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                  Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                  I've not had that experience at all, Dave. I use the XLS1500, running balanced XLR, and I don't hear any noise issues, but the 1500+ have a lower SNR than the 1000 does. As to Pete's note on usage, I know the fan runs, but even when it's on I have to go behind the unit or place my ear right on the front panel for it to become audible using it as a main stereo amp.
                  It could be that the associated equipment is not up to par and is passing noise through, but my Anthem/Crown combo appears to me to be dead quiet..

                  Killa- looks aside, these are great for the money.

                  Later,
                  Wolf
                  First I was speaking in regard to the OP's comments on the XLS 1000. It is good to hear the 1500 may be better suited for HiFi duty. The unit I heard (an XLS1000) you could clearly hear the fans running in soft passages in a recording. I was seated about 8 feet away. But do take that for what it is just my opinion. My experience might not be typical maybe his had a very noisy fan but it was only a few weeks old. Just a word of caution and my luck with fan cooled amps is the fans only get louder as the amps get older. Lot of good convection cooled amps in this price range.
                  Dave

                  If you can read this, thank a teacher.
                  If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran
                  .

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                  • #39
                    Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                    How are those of you using these amps for subs powering them on and off? Leave them on always, with a triggered relay, or manually (gasp!)

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                    • #40
                      Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                      Originally posted by mppatt01 View Post
                      How are those of you using these amps for subs powering them on and off? Leave them on always, with a triggered relay, or manually (gasp!)
                      I use one of these, but it's a pricey solution.

                      http://www.furmansound.com/product.p...01&id=PS-8R_II
                      "We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true."
                      –Robert Wilensky

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                      • #41
                        Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                        http://www.amazon.com/XANTECH-AC1-Co...pd_sim_sbs_e_1

                        This works if you amp doesn't have a 12V dc trigger output use a 12V wall wart and plug it into the switched outlet on the back of the HT Receiver and use it to trigger the AC outlet.

                        If you have handy just get a 15A solid state relay rated for 240VAC, they usually trigger from 3 to about 24VDC you will need an ac outlet and a project box. Basically the same thing as the one in the link except you DIY it.
                        Dave

                        If you can read this, thank a teacher.
                        If you are reading it in English thank a Veteran
                        .

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                        • #42
                          Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                          Originally posted by mppatt01 View Post
                          How are those of you using these amps for subs powering them on and off? Leave them on always, with a triggered relay, or manually (gasp!)
                          Manually, the amp is in the same "rack" where I keep the remote controllers.
                          My Statement monitors
                          My Piccolatas
                          My LM3886 amp

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                          • #43
                            Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                            Originally posted by Whitneyville1 View Post
                            If any amp fans are noisy, check with Newegg, Tiger Direct or a computer "geek" shop for the new "silent" fans (also known as "shark tooth fans" because of the blades), they move more CFM and are so quiet you keep checking to see if they're running
                            I use Noctua fans throughout my PC builds, I'll give one a try in the XTi.
                            "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                            http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                            • #44
                              Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                              Originally posted by Face View Post
                              I use Noctua fans throughout my PC builds, I'll give one a try in the XTi.
                              I should have used an SPL meter to see what sort of change, if any, the Noctua fan made. The amp is still loud, just not as bad. The real test will be when it's placed in a rack and with music or a movie playing. Finally gave it's software a try too, it's not bad, but not great either. And I miss the phase adjustment knob from a dedicated sub amp. I know I can swap the polarity if need be, but for fine adjustments...
                              "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                              http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                              • #45
                                Re: Why don't I ever see these....?

                                Another gripe. When using this amp in my HT rig, hooked up to the balanced outputs of a Marantz processor, the noise floor jumps up significantly when the Crown is powered on. There is high pitched buzz and also a hum through my speakers and subs. When used on the LFE out it's not as bad, but when connected to the L&R out it's a real issue. I doubt it's a ground loop as everything is on the same dedicated outlet and power conditioner, and without the power conditioner it's even worse.
                                "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                                http://www.diy-ny.com/

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