Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

    So I just caught this today and I have a question. What happened to the op?

    There ya go,,,, you guys scared off another one!:D

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

      Originally posted by Psycoacoustics View Post
      So I just caught this today and I have a question. What happened to the op?

      There ya go,,,, you guys scared off another one!:D
      He got his answer. And he provided it himself. TS parameters don't matter, so you can use whatever woofer you want.
      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

        Originally posted by Psycoacoustics View Post
        So I just caught this today and I have a question. What happened to the op?

        There ya go,,,, you guys scared off another one!:D
        http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Teko8...%3DTeko8xeGJBQ

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

          That assumes the motor strength of the original driver remains all these years later.

          Oh, strike that. Like Paul K reiterated, TS parameters don't matter, only wool matters in the design of a TL.
          true...everything ages/changes over time (except maybe Jennifer Aniston)...heck if you went back and remeasured drivers from a project you did 10 years ago, there's a decent chance the T-S parameters have changed enough that could warrant a cabinet or tuning change....but attempting to repair the slightly less known might be a better alternative than slapping something else in....for the minimal cost involved, that would be my first attempt....well, my FIRST attempt would be brake fluid or some other rubber conditioner and a few hours of low frequency exercise to try loosen up the stiff surrounds....

          and foam may not alter T-S parameters (relative to the original) as much as you think....in the EPI/Burhoe "module" speaker restoration circles, there's been some testing of different foams compared to original still compliant rubber surround woofers and original, but hardened rubber surround woofers, and have found that replacing hardened rubber surrounds with foam filled fillet surrounds originally designed for 8" boston acoustics woofers actually brings Fs and other t-s parameters back in line with the original still compliant woofers

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

            Originally posted by michiganpat View Post
            true...everything ages/changes over time (except maybe Jennifer Aniston)...
            That's hilarious. I got a good laugh out of that. And I agree!:D
            Don't worry, if your parachute fails, you have the rest of your life to fix it.

            If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally ASTOUND ourselves - Thomas A. Edison

            Some people collect stamps, Imelda Marcos collected shoes. I collect speakers.:D

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

              I am amazed and totally disgusted by the responses I saw here. It appeared to me no one even bother to find out how Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford defined the Transmission Line speaker in their research.
              It is obvious that no one read the excellent research paper or care.

              1. The long fiber wool must be 5-7 inches long. It is not the length, but the wool have to grow to this long to get the proper diameter. It performs no magic, but is a very important feature of the design's success. (Fine Dracon type synthetic fiber is a completely different animal in acoustics.)
              2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube.
              3. The about action makes a physically 1/4 wave long tube to become a 1/2 wavelength tube acoustically at the low end of frequency. But the acoutic is nonlinear in nature in the fiber tube causing the back wave to be slightly out of phase as the frequency increases. It gives the TL speaker its non-resonant nature. And the gradual phase inverter gives it a entended base response with the KEF B139. I was able to duplicate the Bailey/Radford calculation in using their equations. So I believe them. (Yes, I have a doctoral degree in thermodynamics.)
              4. Bailey and Radford performed extensive experiments using spark to generate impulse wave. That was the best way to do phase change test before the digital age. I would like to see some one to repeat the Bailey/Radford experiment using modern equipments. (No, I have not duplicated their experiments.)

              I was on vacation the last 4 days and saw a lot of posts. I have no interest to continue this thread until someone reads the Bailey/Radford paper and point out to me what they did wrong in the acoustic equation dervation. I built one of their design and like the sound. That is good enough for me. Anyone here wants to re-invent the wheel and call it the TL speaker, he is entitile to his own opinion. And apparently, he can attract a lot of following using the TL term. But to ignore the original research and calling it quarterwave is a dead giveaway.

              I grew up with the audio hobby in the 70's. I was a charter subscriber to Audio Amateur and the Speaker Builder magazine. I found that the hobbyist in those days to be more open minded and trusted their ears more than simple minded calculation.

              Comment


              • #37
                We've moved past the stone age of speaker design since we now have T&S parameters, access to modeling/design software and accurate measurement setups are relatively affordable.
                "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                http://www.diy-ny.com/

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                  Originally posted by keilau View Post
                  But to ignore the original research and calling it quarterwave is a dead giveaway.
                  You yourself are calling it a 1/4 wave tube, because it is a 1/4 wave tube:

                  Originally posted by keilau View Post
                  3. The about action makes a physically 1/4 wave long tube ...
                  It is called a 1/4 wave tube, regardless of the slowing down of low frequency waves. We do not call a car a bicycle, because someone happens to be driving it slowly at the speed of a bicycle.

                  Please read: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.115.9825&rep=rep1&type=pdf

                  Don't worry, if your parachute fails, you have the rest of your life to fix it.

                  If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we would literally ASTOUND ourselves - Thomas A. Edison

                  Some people collect stamps, Imelda Marcos collected shoes. I collect speakers.:D

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                    Originally posted by keilau View Post
                    I am amazed and totally disgusted by the responses I saw here. It appeared to me no one even bother to find out how Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford defined the Transmission Line speaker in their research.
                    It is obvious that no one read the excellent research paper or care.

                    1. The long fiber wool must be 5-7 inches long. It is not the length, but the wool have to grow to this long to get the proper diameter. It performs no magic, but is a very important feature of the design's success. (Fine Dracon type synthetic fiber is a completely different animal in acoustics.)
                    2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube.
                    3. The about action makes a physically 1/4 wave long tube to become a 1/2 wavelength tube acoustically at the low end of frequency. But the acoutic is nonlinear in nature in the fiber tube causing the back wave to be slightly out of phase as the frequency increases. It gives the TL speaker its non-resonant nature. And the gradual phase inverter gives it a entended base response with the KEF B139. I was able to duplicate the Bailey/Radford calculation in using their equations. So I believe them. (Yes, I have a doctoral degree in thermodynamics.)
                    4. Bailey and Radford performed extensive experiments using spark to generate impulse wave. That was the best way to do phase change test before the digital age. I would like to see some one to repeat the Bailey/Radford experiment using modern equipments. (No, I have not duplicated their experiments.)

                    I was on vacation the last 4 days and saw a lot of posts. I have no interest to continue this thread until someone reads the Bailey/Radford paper and point out to me what they did wrong in the acoustic equation dervation. I built one of their design and like the sound. That is good enough for me. Anyone here wants to re-invent the wheel and call it the TL speaker, he is entitile to his own opinion. And apparently, he can attract a lot of following using the TL term. But to ignore the original research and calling it quarterwave is a dead giveaway.

                    I grew up with the audio hobby in the 70's. I was a charter subscriber to Audio Amateur and the Speaker Builder magazine. I found that the hobbyist in those days to be more open minded and trusted their ears more than simple minded calculation.
                    Read it as an Engineering student, built it with long fiber wool in around 1977 . Owned it a long time and gave it away. I have read most of the literature on TL design since then including the most current. I have built stuff based on the current thinking and find it better than the Bailey TL in bass weight, efficiency, and impact. My Bailey line unloaded at low frequencies and had excessive cone motion at tone arm resonance. I don't miss it a bit.

                    Calling Martin's work simple minded calculation would be an insult if not taken in the context of your other puzzling viewpoints. I have no idea what you want.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                      Originally posted by keilau View Post
                      I am amazed and totally disgusted by the responses I saw here. It appeared to me no one even bother to find out how Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford defined the Transmission Line speaker in their research.
                      It is obvious that no one read the excellent research paper or care.

                      1. The long fiber wool must be 5-7 inches long. It is not the length, but the wool have to grow to this long to get the proper diameter. It performs no magic, but is a very important feature of the design's success. (Fine Dracon type synthetic fiber is a completely different animal in acoustics.)
                      2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube.
                      3. The about action makes a physically 1/4 wave long tube to become a 1/2 wavelength tube acoustically at the low end of frequency. But the acoutic is nonlinear in nature in the fiber tube causing the back wave to be slightly out of phase as the frequency increases. It gives the TL speaker its non-resonant nature. And the gradual phase inverter gives it a entended base response with the KEF B139. I was able to duplicate the Bailey/Radford calculation in using their equations. So I believe them. (Yes, I have a doctoral degree in thermodynamics.)
                      4. Bailey and Radford performed extensive experiments using spark to generate impulse wave. That was the best way to do phase change test before the digital age. I would like to see some one to repeat the Bailey/Radford experiment using modern equipments. (No, I have not duplicated their experiments.)

                      I was on vacation the last 4 days and saw a lot of posts. I have no interest to continue this thread until someone reads the Bailey/Radford paper and point out to me what they did wrong in the acoustic equation dervation. I built one of their design and like the sound. That is good enough for me. Anyone here wants to re-invent the wheel and call it the TL speaker, he is entitile to his own opinion. And apparently, he can attract a lot of following using the TL term. But to ignore the original research and calling it quarterwave is a dead giveaway.

                      I grew up with the audio hobby in the 70's. I was a charter subscriber to Audio Amateur and the Speaker Builder magazine. I found that the hobbyist in those days to be more open minded and trusted their ears more than simple minded calculation.
                      Like Face said, things have progressed a bit since the 60s. The fact that you're stuck there isn't our problem, it's yours.

                      You insist that the wool is the magic and that the driver parameters don't factor in. Using your own logic, that means the woofer doesn't matter, not even a little.

                      Now if you say that it does, and that somehow the Phillips woofer was an adequate substitute for the original KEF unit, what about them made them suitable for that particular line? Remember, we're talking about the range below 200Hz here, right in the region where TS parameters define the behavior of the cone, suspension, and motor assembly as a unit.

                      It's not the wool that defines the behavior of the line. It's the wool's density and placement along the line that determine its effect on the line and how it affects the driver impedance and acoustic impedance that the driver sees.

                      keilau, the fact of the matter is, you're wrong when you state that driver parameters don't matter, and deep down, you know it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking about a substitute woofer for the old Phillips. There's only one way to determine if a driver will match the Phillips performance in that line, and that's to know its Qts, Fs, and Vas. Those parameters will determine the low frequency behavior of the woofer in that line. Those parameters determine the low frequency performance of every woofer, regardless the enclosure. Those parameters work for sealed, open baffle, transmission line, passive radiator and bass reflex enclosures.

                      What Bailey and Radford did can be modeled with Martin King's worksheets. The mathematical treatment Martin has applied to the system is repeatable, and verifiable, and has been proven over, and over, and over, and over, in the real world, with myriad woofers in a variety of lines.
                      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                      Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                      95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                      "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                        What stands out like a sore thumb is this from the OP's latest post:
                        "2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube."

                        That statement suggests (states?) that the speed of sound is slowed down to half as much by the wool stuffing, and I'm pretty sure the cause was assumed to be due to the wool fibers moving (swaying in the breeze, I suppose). Martin, and perhaps others, have proven this theory wrong. Unfortunately, before we had Martin's, and others', software to work with, many TL builders bought into this and assumed you could make a line half as long and use stuffing to make it perform like it was twice its actual length.
                        Paul

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                          Originally posted by keilau View Post
                          I am amazed and totally disgusted by the responses I saw here. It appeared to me no one even bother to find out how Dr A.R. Bailey and A.H. Radford defined the Transmission Line speaker in their research.
                          It is obvious that no one read the excellent research paper or care.

                          1. The long fiber wool must be 5-7 inches long. It is not the length, but the wool have to grow to this long to get the proper diameter. It performs no magic, but is a very important feature of the design's success. (Fine Dracon type synthetic fiber is a completely different animal in acoustics.)
                          2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube.
                          3. The about action makes a physically 1/4 wave long tube to become a 1/2 wavelength tube acoustically at the low end of frequency. But the acoutic is nonlinear in nature in the fiber tube causing the back wave to be slightly out of phase as the frequency increases. It gives the TL speaker its non-resonant nature. And the gradual phase inverter gives it a entended base response with the KEF B139. I was able to duplicate the Bailey/Radford calculation in using their equations. So I believe them. (Yes, I have a doctoral degree in thermodynamics.)
                          4. Bailey and Radford performed extensive experiments using spark to generate impulse wave. That was the best way to do phase change test before the digital age. I would like to see some one to repeat the Bailey/Radford experiment using modern equipments. (No, I have not duplicated their experiments.)

                          I was on vacation the last 4 days and saw a lot of posts. I have no interest to continue this thread until someone reads the Bailey/Radford paper and point out to me what they did wrong in the acoustic equation dervation. I built one of their design and like the sound. That is good enough for me. Anyone here wants to re-invent the wheel and call it the TL speaker, he is entitile to his own opinion. And apparently, he can attract a lot of following using the TL term. But to ignore the original research and calling it quarterwave is a dead giveaway.

                          I grew up with the audio hobby in the 70's. I was a charter subscriber to Audio Amateur and the Speaker Builder magazine. I found that the hobbyist in those days to be more open minded and trusted their ears more than simple minded calculation.
                          I just looked back in my personal notes and found that I have been working on transmission lines for over 25 years. I have the articles you referenced and all the copies of Speakerbuilder. I analyzed many TL's using the methods in the referenced articles and compared the results against measured electrical impedance and SPL plots. The methods did not correlate, the calculated results based on these theories were wrong. I was not alone in this conclusion, check out the paper by Bullock and his experience with TL modeling.

                          So I designed and built a test TL and took many careful measurements, revisited all of my equations and fixed the mistakes resulting from following the articles you provided. The biggest mistake is the belief that the fibers move and slow the speed of sound. This was a fundamental error made by Bailey and Bradford in their AES articles.

                          At the same time I was formulating my models George Augspurger approached the problem with a different method of modeling and reached the same conclusions. Our two different calculation approaches produce the same answers for a given TL geometry. Both of us have produced excellent correlations between predictions and measured electrical impedance and SPL responses. Everything I have done is on my site for people to review and form an independent opinion. George Augspurger's work is presented in AES papers and in the Journal of the AES. Over the past 10 years many TL's have been designed by different users of my MathCad worksheets and after building them the measured results matched the predictions. Sounds pretty well wrapped up to me.

                          Don't like or believe in the newer more modern TL design theory and want to stick with the work from the late 60's and early 70's is fine by me. Can you show calculated results with enough detail that they can be checked and then produce a build with measurements that correlate against the predictions? I can. Since I have not seen any real work from you in my opinion your posts do not carry a lot of weight. Bring something to the table for people to chew on, more then just words telling others with years of successful experiences that they are wrong. Not much point in continuing a one sided conversation. Your move.
                          Martin

                          Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
                          www.quarter-wave.com

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                            keilau will either huff and puff and try to blow the brick house down, huff and puff and leave, or take a deep breath and learn a thing or two from the place he came to for answers.

                            keilau, the answers are here, the expertise is here. The open minded hobbyist trusts objective data and repeatable calculations with real-world verification, and their ears thank them in the end.
                            R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                            Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                            95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                            "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                              keilau will either huff and puff and try to blow the brick house down, huff and puff and leave, or take a deep breath and learn a thing or two from the place he came to for answers.

                              keilau, the answers are here, the expertise is here. The open minded hobbyist trusts objective data and repeatable calculations with real-world verification, and their ears thank them in the end.
                              Well put by the man from the "Show me" state. Perhaps it was a case Mr. K pulling the wool over his own eyes (or is that ears)?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Philips 10100-8 10" woofer replacement in Transmission Line cabinets

                                Originally posted by Paul K. View Post
                                What stands out like a sore thumb is this from the OP's latest post:
                                "2. The acoustic wave slows down substantially, to as much as 50% at 25 Hz at the long fiber wool filled tube."
                                He's quoting pretty much verbatim from Bailey circa 1965. It's been proven time and time again to be simply wrong. The speed of sound in a fiber filled tube can be slowed, by a few percentage points, but that's all. He keeps referencing theory as it existed nearly fifty years ago. It's no more accurate than another prevailing theory of that era, that the smallest sub atomic particles were the electron, neutron and proton. Comparing Bailey's methods of speaker design to today's is about the same as comparing a cloud chamber to the Large Hadron Collider.
                                www.billfitzmaurice.com
                                www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X