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Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

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  • #16
    Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    That new Dayton AMTPro-4 looks like it might do the trick after seeing Critofur's data. It should at least keep up with one of the PM180.
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    • #17
      Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

      Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
      Not yet. I was thinking of using one of the Diysoundgroup's SEOS waveguides. Do you have something in mind? I need it to be at least 96dB, even into the top octave.
      Jeff

      You may be thinking compression driver but if not the AST2560 did really nice in my 165mm x 115mm guide with a depth of 1-1/2".
      http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=276-440
      It says its sensitivity is 95dbs. I couldn't find a flat baffle measurement to compare the guide to. I must not have taken one. It did hold its top end with the guide.
      I used it in the open back speaker I brought to InDIYana this year.

      Here are measurements 0-90 horizontal on a 10" x 14" baffle with my guide.
      https://picasaweb.google.com/1016322...85908343177090
      It would easily cross at 2kHz.

      Dave
      http://www.pellegreneacoustics.com/

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      • #18
        Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

        Originally posted by Face View Post
        Ah, I didn't know about that weird energy storage...still if you were willing to do a sharp crossover a little higher it might still work. Still, probably not the best idea for a variety of reasons.

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        • #19
          Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

          I don't think the thermal limits would ever be a problem unless used in a pro-sound application.

          -------------------

          Jeff B.

          Thank you for taking the time to share your measurements with us. It really gets the gears churning on big-3-way ideas. The first thing I thought when I saw these drivers pop up was that they might just have what it takes to pull off a DIY floorstander inspired by the B&W 800 series (something big, heavy, and efficient, with a sort of exotic high EBP large cone hifi oriented mid). Looking at your measurements this would definitely be a candidate for such an approach, though perhaps with lower crossovers all around.

          If you wouldn't mind me picking your brain a bit. You mentioned the Delta Pro 12A, in what I believe you were indicating could be a TMWW build with one of these PM180's. Anything in particular about the 12A in this configuration that tickled you the right way? After some round-a-round in my head with it I can think of a number of reasons this driver could make more sense than would appear on the surface (in-room response when detuned, high inductor value needed to curb some excess sensitivity would simplify component count in the low pass to achieve a steep slope), so I'm curious to know if you had gone though a sophisticated process to arrive at that, or if it was just a rough idea at the time.

          Thanks,
          Eric
          Pro/Fi Cinema Speaker project: "From the Ashes"

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          • #20
            Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

            Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
            Not yet. I was thinking of using one of the Diysoundgroup's SEOS waveguides. Do you have something in mind? I need it to be at least 96dB, even into the top octave.
            Jeff
            High efficiency, smooth FR, controlled midrange pattern, combine that with a narrow form factor (as narrow as the chosen WG will allow) and that had "winner" written all over it.

            Curious, Jeff, do you happen to have the old Audax aerogel or paper mids on hand? (Back in the day both impressed me more than the comparable Kevlar Focal). If so, I'd be curious how the Dayton compares.
            --
            "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

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            • #21
              Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

              Originally posted by Pallas View Post
              High efficiency, smooth FR, controlled midrange pattern, combine that with a narrow form factor (as narrow as the chosen WG will allow) and that had "winner" written all over it.

              Curious, Jeff, do you happen to have the old Audax aerogel or paper mids on hand? (Back in the day both impressed me more than the comparable Kevlar Focal). If so, I'd be curious how the Dayton compares.
              I have used the Audax paper mids, but never the Aerogel. However, I no longer have those in order to make a comparison. I do have some Focal W cone 6W4311's and measured them at the same time as the Daytons on the same baffle in order to make a direct reference back to something. The Daytons were almost exactly 6dB more sensitive and had much lower midband distortion. The Focals had a much better behave roll-off.
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              • #22
                Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                Originally posted by mdocod View Post
                I don't think the thermal limits would ever be a problem unless used in a pro-sound application.

                -------------------

                Jeff B.

                Thank you for taking the time to share your measurements with us. It really gets the gears churning on big-3-way ideas. The first thing I thought when I saw these drivers pop up was that they might just have what it takes to pull off a DIY floorstander inspired by the B&W 800 series (something big, heavy, and efficient, with a sort of exotic high EBP large cone hifi oriented mid). Looking at your measurements this would definitely be a candidate for such an approach, though perhaps with lower crossovers all around.

                If you wouldn't mind me picking your brain a bit. You mentioned the Delta Pro 12A, in what I believe you were indicating could be a TMWW build with one of these PM180's. Anything in particular about the 12A in this configuration that tickled you the right way? After some round-a-round in my head with it I can think of a number of reasons this driver could make more sense than would appear on the surface (in-room response when detuned, high inductor value needed to curb some excess sensitivity would simplify component count in the low pass to achieve a steep slope), so I'm curious to know if you had gone though a sophisticated process to arrive at that, or if it was just a rough idea at the time.

                Thanks,
                Eric
                I chose the Delta Pro 12A because when I used it in my Tempest design with the SEOS12 I was very impressed with its abilities to cross nicely into the midrange and I really liked how it handled the mid and upper bass range. It had more "slam" than I got from other woofers, so it seemed more dynamic and life-like. When I tuned it a bit lower than textbook its in-room response was very nice down to the 40hz range, so all in all it has become a favorite of mine for a 97-98 dB woofer. It really rocks.
                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                • #23
                  Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                  Originally posted by davepellegrene View Post
                  You may be thinking compression driver but if not the AST2560 did really nice in my 165mm x 115mm guide with a depth of 1-1/2".
                  http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=276-440
                  It says its sensitivity is 95dbs. I couldn't find a flat baffle measurement to compare the guide to. I must not have taken one. It did hold its top end with the guide.
                  I used it in the open back speaker I brought to InDIYana this year.

                  Here are measurements 0-90 horizontal on a 10" x 14" baffle with my guide.
                  https://picasaweb.google.com/1016322...85908343177090
                  It would easily cross at 2kHz.

                  Dave
                  Hmmmmm.... I like this idea. I will give it some thought. I loved the highs from the speaker you brought that used this tweeter last April.
                  Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                  • #24
                    Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                    Originally posted by dcibel View Post
                    Looks like one hell of a driver! Let's not forget there is an 8" model too!

                    Dayton's response charts definitely don't make their drivers look that attractive, that's for sure.
                    I have the PM220 model too. Oddly, it is a bit better behaved in the upper-end than the PM180 is, but the PM180 actually has lower midrange distortion, but just a bit better. The PM220 with a simple contour filter could be used as a full-range speaker and on-axis would be fairly respectable. Better than a Lowther, anyway. I thought about using it in my Alchemy speaker, but the Eminence Beta 8A was flatter below 2khz so I stayed with it. The PM220 has better bass though.
                    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                    • #25
                      Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                      Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                      I have used the Audax paper mids, but never the Aerogel. However, I no longer have those in order to make a comparison. I do have some Focal W cone 6W4311's and measured them at the same time as the Daytons on the same baffle in order to make a direct reference back to something. The Daytons were almost exactly 6dB more sensitive and had much lower midband distortion. The Focals had a much better behave roll-off.
                      Aerogels RULE!! I'm an Audax wh0re, though....
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                      • #26
                        Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                        Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
                        I have the PM220 model too. Oddly, it is a bit better behaved in the upper-end than the PM180 is, but the PM180 actually has lower midrange distortion, but just a bit better. The PM220 with a simple contour filter could be used as a full-range speaker and on-axis would be fairly respectable. Better than a Lowther, anyway. I thought about using it in my Alchemy speaker, but the Eminence Beta 8A was flatter below 2khz so I stayed with it. The PM220 has better bass though.
                        That's good to know, and I gathered as much about the rolloff from Dayton's graphs. I'd always wanted to try out the Beta 8A, however after seeing this I think if I need a beta 8 I might just splurge on the PM220 instead.

                        A friend of mine built a 2-way "econowave" type of speaker with my help, using the Delta Pro 12A and D220ti that he uses in his basement theatre. I'll definitely keep these drivers in mind when he wants to upgrade either the surround/centre speakers, or upgrade the 2-way set to a larger 3-way set.

                        It also would appear that either driver has pretty good bass extension used in a ported cabinet. Better than I expected and they don't need a huge cabinet like most high effeciency drivers either. I guess I can thank a powerful neo motor for that. Would make great 2-way stereo systems that only need 15-30W of power.
                        "You give bad advice and cause a lot of confusion" -Craigk

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                        • #27
                          Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                          Hi, I was wondering if anyone has used the Eminence Beta 6a in a design like this for a mid ? I happen to have 2 that I bought at the tent sale.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                            A design like what? It's a very popular driver so I'm sure you won't be disappointed with them, however you decide to use them.
                            "You give bad advice and cause a lot of confusion" -Craigk

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                            • #29
                              Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                              Originally posted by dcibel View Post
                              A design like what? It's a very popular driver so I'm sure you won't be disappointed with them, however you decide to use them.
                              I just thought about making a efficient 2 way with the 6a as a midbass. Maybe with a small waveguide and the 18 Sound EAW 1 inch driver. I also am intrigued by the Dayton PM drivers and wondered if the 6a could be used similarly. I will bow out, just was thinking out loud.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

                                A high end mid deserves a high end tweeter ! It will be interesting to see what tweeter has enough spl and sq to be considered highend enough to make the cut . Wave guides and cd 's are the latest buzz , they are not for everyone but obviously a way to achieve spl but to be considered high end may be debatable !? I'm sure a lot of people will be watching this one .
                                ,donc

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