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4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

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  • #16
    Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

    Originally posted by CokewithLime View Post
    From my experiences with the CSS XBL sub driver designs you can't run them at over 75% of their rated Xmax since their Xmax and Xmech are so close to each other, also without a bumped back plate they are very easy to bottom out.

    On the other hand The Dayton subs in general and the Ultimax in specific tend to be "underated" in Xmax with a substantially higher Xmech.

    Frankly given the small size of your room, why not just use the Dayton Audio DVC310-88 12" DVC subs in sealed enclosures, they will provide way more than enough LFE that you could stand - lol
    I don't know, I may be one of the very few around who have worked with both the CSS SDX12 and the Ultimax 12. In the case of the 12" drivers there is very little comparison in motor design. The SDX12 is not really a close brother to the SDX10, by the way. It actually weighs a little more than twice as much as the UM12 does, and the UM12 seems like a "small" 12" sub in comparison.

    I was the person who did a lot of the initial testing of the SDX12 for the published parameters, and my numbers agreed very well with the samples sent for Klippel measurement, so the published numbers should be pretty accurate. My measurements of the UM12 where right on spec too, so both sets of published data should be good for modeling. I would assume the same to be true of the Ultimax 15.

    The SDX12 is an underhung motor, dual gap XBL^2 design, so its BL curve is different from a typical overhung motor like the Ultimax. The rated Xmax of the SDX12 is +/- 28mm. It's hard to imagine someone would need more, but I have never heard this comment about only pushing them to 75% of this number, and frankly, I do not know if it applies to this driver, as it is different than early XBL versions.

    Whether someone would want to use the UM15 or the SDX12 depends on a number of things. The SDX12 has a lower Qts and would have a lower Qtc as well, so its roll-off would be more gradual. The UM15, in a sealed box, could extend deeper though before roll-off. The SDX12 would be happier in a smaller box. It's a matter of system preference by the user.

    Your recommendation of the Dayton DVC310-88 is a good one. I recommended it to my brother for his car due to the very well optimized T/S parameters. He later tried the UM12 in its place, and ultimately went back to the DVC because he liked it better in his car. It is a very good subwoofer for the money.

    Jeff B.
    Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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    • #17
      Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

      Is this real? (4) 15s in a room smaller than my bathroom is at a minimum, unnecessary. I have (2) 15s and (2)12s in a room 3X that volume and the pressure they create can be nauseating. Use (2) 15s and invest the rest in your kid’s education. Just a thought.

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      • #18
        Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

        Originally posted by dwigle View Post
        Is this real? (4) 15s in a room smaller than my bathroom is at a minimum, unnecessary. I have (2) 15s and (2)12s in a room 3X that volume and the pressure they create can be nauseating. Use (2) 15s and invest the rest in your kid’s education. Just a thought.
        That bathroom is unnecessary.
        Builds - C-Killa - Speedsters - LithMTM - Talking Sticks - Pocket Rockets - Khanspires - Dayton RS Center - RS225/28A - Kairos - Adelphos - SEOS TD12X - Dayton 8 - Needles - 871S - eD6c - Overnight Sensations - Tritrix (ported) - Lineup F4 - Stentorians - The Cheapies - Tub Thumpers - Barbells - Tuba HT - Numerous subwoofers - probably missing a few......

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        • #19
          Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

          My bathroom was 10 x 13 x 9, so almost the same size. Would like to have bigger HT room but did not get the house that had a 20X40X10 HT room with a stepped area for large amounts of seating that I was looking at last year. Now my wife says maybe we should have gotten that one. Then I would have been looking at horns.

          I agree it is overkill but once you start looking at going with 4 the price difference for 4 8s or 4 15s is not that different. I am looking forward to nauseating.

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          • #20
            Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

            double post

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            • #21
              Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

              Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
              The SDX12 is an underhung motor, dual gap XBL^2 design, so its BL curve is different from a typical overhung motor like the Ultimax. The rated Xmax of the SDX12 is +/- 28mm. It's hard to imagine someone would need more, but I have never heard this comment about only pushing them to 75% of this number, and frankly, I do not know if it applies to this driver, as it is different than early XBL versions.
              Jeff - yes, I was referring my earlier less than satisfying experiences with the original CSS XBL designs.

              Originally posted by Jeff B. View Post
              Your recommendation of the Dayton DVC310-88 is a good one. I recommended it to my brother for his car due to the very well optimized T/S parameters. He later tried the UM12 in its place, and ultimately went back to the DVC because he liked it better in his car. It is a very good subwoofer for the money.
              Since the OP seems to have not even considered realistic and economical drivers that will do the job for him in that size room and his mind is set on spending money that he will never hear this seems to be more of an ego build...

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              • #22
                Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                Originally posted by joeybutts View Post
                That bathroom is unnecessary.
                It was a decent trade - my wife got the bathroom, I got the HT room.

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                • #23
                  Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                  Originally posted by dwigle View Post
                  It was a decent trade - my wife got the bathroom, I got the HT room.
                  Touche! I completely agree.

                  Just bustin *****. I wish I had that size bathroom.

                  I don't think it is an ego build, more a different strokes for different folks.
                  Builds - C-Killa - Speedsters - LithMTM - Talking Sticks - Pocket Rockets - Khanspires - Dayton RS Center - RS225/28A - Kairos - Adelphos - SEOS TD12X - Dayton 8 - Needles - 871S - eD6c - Overnight Sensations - Tritrix (ported) - Lineup F4 - Stentorians - The Cheapies - Tub Thumpers - Barbells - Tuba HT - Numerous subwoofers - probably missing a few......

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                  • #24
                    Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                    Here is my reasoning.

                    I have numerous differing sound quality in subs. I have a TSC-250 that I pulled the driver and lined the enclosure and the sound got fuller that I use for the extra TV with a ZVOX sound bar. I have a Occam Audio sub with the SDX-10 driver that has a much lower and better sound than the TSC-250 and they are exactly the same size. I have an SVS PC-12 plus that is a great output sub and sounds pretty good. Finally I have pair of Selah Audio RC4 that I ordered from Rick and picked up from him at the 2006 RMAF so it has the Scan Speak 23W subs instead of the peerless XXLS. I am completely spoiled with those subs. I did a direct comparison with them against the Occam Audio SDX-10 sub in my two channel system and the SDX 10 sounded deep but it did not blend in with thee speakers like the Scan speak. I really like the scan speaks and really wanted something comparable in my HT.

                    I really wanted to get the new Scan Speak 32W when it came out. Now I finally decided that this would be a sub that would not be a realistic and economical driver for a quad setup in my HT room. I still really would like to get that setup but I don't think it is needed. Also I have B&W 601 mains, B&W 603 sides, B&W 601 rear, and a B&W center. I think I would have to upgrade the speakers to stay on quality with the subs if I got the Scan Speak and for HT I am happy with the B&W for HT.

                    I think the Dayton is a nice economical speaker for what you get. I was thinking about TC sounds LMS-R quad setup. And again it seems that one might as well step up to 15 for the little extra money instead of the 12s. Overkill yes but the speakers will not be operating as hard so there will be less distortion. I also like the look of the Dayton Ultimax which I think is important. I also really like the look of the Sundown ZV4 and Sundown will build them custom so it would be optimized for HT, but I think this is not a realistic and economical driver for 4 of them in my room. In this quest for subs I went and watched some of the vides that people have of these in there cars and I never knew how much a car could flex with just pure SPL. If you have not watched some of these videos on you tube it is worth checking out.

                    So that is my saga. I am trying to do something for me that is economical, hence the DIY route and not 4 SVS sealed. I want drivers that I like the way they look and they have good performance that has been vetted by people who know. And I like the idea of having big drivers like the 15 uncovered that I will be able to see in my front stage. With the video of the Ultimax and the screwdriver trick I think I can leave them uncovered with my kids. If I got something with a dustcap they might be pushed in very quickly. Luckily I decided against the UM18, too much time over at AVS with the crazy baseheads, and will be happy with the Dayton Ultimax in a 15 for aesthetics, quality, and output.

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                    • #25
                      Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                      Originally posted by Ray Tremblay View Post
                      The craziest I've done was JBL pro audio 18's in a home stereo before. I think they only had 7mm of xmax and it was down right ridiculous to put it lightly.

                      With the 18" Ultimax's 22mm Xmax......it's safe to say that your quest for bass will be done.
                      I use a single 18" JBL 2245 with a 500W plate amp in a rather large and open "great-room" layout and I don't think I have maxed it out (Telarc 1812 Overture recording excepted) despite sort-of trying to do so. I can't even comprehend what some of the some of the subwoofer builds over at AVS Forum are capable of. Of course overkill is a good way to ensure low distortion and more or less eliminate any concerns damaging a driver. Build it and enjoy!

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                      • #26
                        Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                        Well.. Whatever you decide to do let us know how it sounds. I'm going to doing a 15in build this summer. I haven't decided what driver to use ether. I would like to see how your build turns out.

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                        • #27
                          Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                          Do you have a link to the "video of the Ultimax and the screwdriver trick"? Just curious.
                          Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

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                          • #28
                            Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                            If you've never heard a well-designed and balanced system with significant subwoofer "overkill" (potential but not abused) you'll not understand the reasoning for it... effortless spine-tingling sub-bass. Goosebumps...
                            "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
                            ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

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                            • #29
                              Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                              Seriously, my HT room is close in size ( 15x12x8 ) and I run a single RS390HF....more than one could actually hurt!

                              But, if you need and multi-sub massage, I would suggest starting at two not four. Quality first, quantity later!

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                              • #30
                                Re: 4 Ultimax 15 or 4 SDX 12 sealed for small room

                                Here is the video of the Ultimax overview with screwdriver action.
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVQy...layer_embedded

                                I currently have two subs in the room and there is good output and pretty flat frequency response.

                                I could start with two on the front wall with the TV and Mains and put the SVS PC12 + on the back wall and see if can I integrate them. Just not sure how much luck I will have with a ported and dual sealed.

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