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10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

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  • #31
    Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

    Pete,
    I assume you mean a series notch filter in parallel with the tweeter? Currently I am active, but I can see this being necessary if going passive. Don't RCL filters tend to give a little bump right above the Xover point.

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    • #32
      Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

      You would think this sounded good, but is instead incoherent and seemingly void of tone. Sounds hollow and without any body to the music.

      Click image for larger version

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      • #33
        Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

        Originally posted by buzzforb View Post
        Pete,
        I assume you mean a series notch filter in parallel with the tweeter? Currently I am active, but I can see this being necessary if going passive. Don't RCL filters tend to give a little bump right above the Xover point.
        Actually, I mean a parallel RCL in series with the tweeter, like this:



        As for it sounding hollow, could that be due to a crossover point too high up for the woofer?
        R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
        Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

        95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
        "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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        • #34
          Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

          The enclosure has sufficient bracing and lining, correct?
          "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

          http://www.diy-ny.com/

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          • #35
            Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

            I got you Pete. Face, box is sufficiently braced and lined. As for the changes I have made since. I switched the LP from LR12 to LR24. Raised it a bit. Played with LP notch and baffle step compensation and its starting to sing now. Quite nice really. It definitely sounds like a monitor. No warm fuzziws here, but in the best of ways. It is not harsh or bright, just matter of fact. DSD version of "Companion" by Patrica Barber was a treat to listen to. Great resolution and sense of space. Nice tempo and pace on the drum solo, with plenty of snap. It is really amazing and intimidating how such little changes could make such a big difference in the voicing. Crossover is around 1.5-1.6K mark. It is unusual in that both the tweeter and the woofer have a bit of a shelf in this region. Perhaps this was a reson for the difficulty. There was a lot of blending going on in that region. Still is, but just a better balance now. I can see how the 10g40 is a great midbass. Nice snap and clarity. Wonder if it would sound better with more power. Right now a Firstwatt J2 clone is driving them. TL Labs tweeters are exceptional. I cant wait to hear what the other offerings will sound like. I will post details of the semi-final Xover a little later.

            This weekend, we will listen at my brothers house. J2 driving the bottomand either AJ or M2 on the top. Oppo 105 as the source.

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            • #36
              Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

              Originally posted by Face View Post
              The enclosure has sufficient bracing and lining, correct?
              I would look at the area between 600-1000 hz and try to get that up a little higher. It looks like it is a bit lower than the upper midrange, which I would think could cause what you are hearing.
              -Kerry

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              • #37
                Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                This is one of the areas that was addressed. Between the room, diffraction, and slightly higher Le than spec'd, the woofer was the battle. diffraction combined with natural reponse caused a wide peak in the 250-550 region where it thrn drops off to a fairly flat shelf. I am interested to measure as the changes were made just from listening.

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                • #38
                  Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                  Originally posted by buzzforb View Post
                  I got you Pete. Face, box is sufficiently braced and lined. As for the changes I have made since. I switched the LP from LR12 to LR24. Raised it a bit. Played with LP notch and baffle step compensation and its starting to sing now. Quite nice really. It definitely sounds like a monitor. No warm fuzziws here, but in the best of ways. It is not harsh or bright, just matter of fact. DSD version of "Companion" by Patrica Barber was a treat to listen to. Great resolution and sense of space. Nice tempo and pace on the drum solo, with plenty of snap. It is really amazing and intimidating how such little changes could make such a big difference in the voicing. Crossover is around 1.5-1.6K mark. It is unusual in that both the tweeter and the woofer have a bit of a shelf in this region. Perhaps this was a reson for the difficulty. There was a lot of blending going on in that region. Still is, but just a better balance now. I can see how the 10g40 is a great midbass. Nice snap and clarity. Wonder if it would sound better with more power. Right now a Firstwatt J2 clone is driving them. TL Labs tweeters are exceptional. I cant wait to hear what the other offerings will sound like. I will post details of the semi-final Xover a little later.

                  This weekend, we will listen at my brothers house. J2 driving the bottomand either AJ or M2 on the top. Oppo 105 as the source.
                  I can't wait to get my TL tweeters into a system. Too bad it will proably be such a long time before that happens. I really liked them in Pete's/Vapor Audio's Aurora.
                  -Kerry

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                  • #39
                    Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                    I haev the C Quenze 18h coming to try with it as well. Complete opposite situation with that woofer. With baffle step compensation, it is ruler flat due to low Le. CAn cross with tweeter at 2.5K. At this point, this tweeter in Dave's waveguide creates a sweet rolloff around this same area with only a 6dB HP. A tiny little boost on the top end past 15K just to make the graph look pretty. If the C Quenze is all I hope it to be, I may order one the 18 I version which changes the surround and gets rid of the resonance in the second post. This will be crossed to a TD12S in a big nasty 3 way, Harbeth style. With this one, hope to be using a newer version of the TL tweeter with the new round flange. At that crossover point, I do not know if I will use a waveguide. If I do, may go for a smaller and shallower version.

                    If litening session goes well, I will put the components on the facted baffle. Should help alleviate some of the issue I am now dealing with, reducing diffraction a little and lowering that midbass hump.

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                    • #40
                      Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                      Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                      I would look at the area between 600-1000 hz and try to get that up a little higher. It looks like it is a bit lower than the upper midrange, which I would think could cause what you are hearing.
                      it is not the dip that needs addressed, it is the peak that is right before it in the 500-550 range. level that a little and it will make a huge difference.
                      craigk

                      " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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                      • #41
                        Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                        Originally posted by buzzforb View Post
                        This is one of the areas that was addressed. Between the room, diffraction, and slightly higher Le than spec'd, the woofer was the battle. diffraction combined with natural reponse caused a wide peak in the 250-550 region where it thrn drops off to a fairly flat shelf. I am interested to measure as the changes were made just from listening.
                        Sounds like your experiencing the troubles of two way stand mount design. I've found a threeway with woofer on the floor crossed 400hz +- helps with the various floor, wall ceiling issues and can deliver a fairly smooth response up to the crossover.

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                        • #42
                          Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                          Even though the 6dB network "works", I'd still shoot for a 2nd order filter just to make sure that tweeter isn't going to be strained at all.
                          R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio
                          Byzantium Project & Build Thread || MiniByzy Build Thread || 3 x Peerless 850439 HDS 3-way || 8" 2-way - RS28A/B&C8BG51

                          95% of Climate Models Agree: The Observations Must be Wrong
                          "Gravitational systems are the ashes of prior electrical systems.". - Hannes Alfven, Nobel Laureate, Plasma physicist.

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                          • #43
                            Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                            I think you are right on this as i noticed some hash when trying this on one Xover attempt. As wierd as it may seem, I think FR drivers have ruined me for this type of speaker. While things are blending pretty good, i cant say i would want to live with this speaker. I dont like the crossover in this region and hope to try the AT today. With it, i will be able to push the crossover up to the 2.5-3K region. See how i like it. The Beyma is a great midbass speaker. Really nice snap and punch to it, but this seem to carry over in a not so good way to violens and other stringed instruments. May be the implementation. I bet if used in a sealed box crossed to a SEOS, it might be really nice, as you could push the crossover down further. It has the extension to go higher, i just dont like the sound on a longer term basis. As for the TL labs tweeter. I have zero complaints. I have heard details out of this tweeter that i have not heard on any other that I have listened to. I can say it is on the level of ribbons i have heard. Speaker building is tough

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                            • #44
                              Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                              Can i trust the DATS woofer tester in terms of Le measurements? It is showing the C Quenze 18h as having an Le of .7 vs .15?

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                              • #45
                                Re: 10G40 MLTL, Transducer Labs N26Cx-A/ Pellegrene waveguide

                                Are you testing at 1k or 10K? That could be the difference.
                                https://www.facebook.com/Mosaic-Audi...7373763888294/

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